barrel outdoor prop idea

[sharkdude]

here is my latest hair brained idea for a prop system:



I have an area immediately outside an office window that is narrow (less than 3 ft wide) but gets good sunlight throughout the day. I can easily route electric and its close to my ro/di filter for top off supply.
My idea is to plumb together 3 to 4 55 gal barrels that would be mostly buried for cooling inside a low profile shed with a window to allow sunlight.

I have some better detailed hand drawings on paper but the above gives you the idea. By placing it in this location, I could tie it into my main display system in the office to use common skimmer, calcium reactor, etc. This system would essentially become the sump.

Live rock would be placed in the bottoms of the barrels and eggcrate/pvc racks would be placed for frag growout.

what do you think?

[sharkdude]

the 55 gal barrels are approx 24 inch diameter by 36 inches tall.

[Konadog]

Chris, I think its a good idea. Does that side of the office get direct sunlight all year (summer/winter)? The only thing is that there is not much surface area (24") in each barrel so its not a large area to grow stuff.

[sharkdude]

thanks for the reply Ken.

yeah, I did some rough calculations and it would take 4 barrels (1808 sq in) to have almost the same surface area of my plastic vat (1702 sq in).

I've lived at the house over one year now, and the proposed site may get enough light year round but I'll have to take some more detailed observations or measurements to be sure.
I could supplement with lighting in the winter, but that would defeat the purpose of reducing costs.

this is not intended as a commercial venture so max production is not the main goal. some production at lower costs while increasing my water volume in display system and having an area for frag growout would achieve my goals.

anyone have any ideas for cheap winter time heating?
I think Steve Garret uses a gas heater system?
I guess I could insulate the shed.

[o2manyfish]

The problem with your system, is that the vats in the ground and going to be constantly trying to cool your water to under 70deg.

Given the quantity of water below the ground be cooled this way, heating this water may be come a big challenge.

Dave B

[sharkdude]

Thanks Dave.
so you think I'll have too much cooling? I was thinking it would not be enough, especially in the summer.

will it really be that much cooling with 150 of 200 gals buried to 24 inches deep (the barrels 90% full and buried 2/3 of the way)?

what ratio of buried water to above ground water would you suggest?

If I plumb it into the almost 200 gal system in the house, won't this keep it warmer overall?

its a fine balance between warm enough/ too cool/ too warm!
I guess I need an adjustable flow cooling loop but easier said than done!

[CJB137]

Just a thought, how about cutting the barrells in half so that you wont have all the wasted empty space?
I am sure you are going to put the corals near the top to utilize the light?
or are you just more concerned with a larger water volume.

[sharkdude]

CJB137: yeah, corals shallow near top on some type of rack to utilize light.
the 'empty space' will add extra water volume as you mention and house nearly 200 lbs of live rock from the current prop system I have in my garage. pics at
http://www.ximinasphotography.com/ga...s.php?album=32
http://community.webshots.com/album/166111390zYbESp
http://community.webshots.com/album/123982476HVixTo

plus, as dave pointed out, cooling effect of water below ground level.

[tangsta]

From a logical standpoint, the obvious solution (for this design) would be to regulate the depth that the barrels are buried, to coordinate with the seasons. From an engineering standpoint, this is obviously easier said than done! The use of hydraulics is cost prohibitive and manual jacks would have access limitations, so........

I also suspect that the barrel walls would have to have actual contact with the earth to get the heat-transfer cooling effect???

No solution yet,
Just throwing out ideas

(edit)
btw,
why couln't you bury the 4x4 vat with the same idea???

With the barrel idea: would the 200lbs of liverock in the bottom of the barrels get enough light to sustain coraline algae, etc???

[loserkidz]

Chris,
Is there any way you could just regulate the amount of water that is going to be going through the prop system with ball valves so that you could periodically adjust for the temp fluctuations that are going to be happening due to weather.
Brent

[bugsy714]

My god man, is that where an innocent prop system leads....to total garage domination?!? Don't tell my wife, we just set up three 16" X 48" tanks in our kitchen

I like the idea of sinking the tanks to use the earth as a heatsink. How does O2manyfish do on cooling with just the pipes sunk? You could offset the nighttime cooling by running your indoor tank on a reverse cycle, but then no goodies will be seen during the day.

What about sinking one barrel in deep and leaving the others on/at ground level. Then take the ball valve idea from above and use the ball valves to regulate how much cooled water enters the loop. You could get actuating ball valves and hook them up to a temp controller so the process is automated and self adjusts daily. My 2 cents (I knew those mech engineering classes would be good for something )

[spline9]

Why not insulate the outside of the barrels to minimize overcooling and maintain the waters current temp? Use some of that liquid foam insulator stuff and just pour it around the barrels. Yeah?

[JenDub]

hmmm....That would work for a constant air temp but you need more cooling in summer and much less in winter. You need some sort of variable cooling controls that adjust based on the current conditions. I wonder, is the ground a constant temp all year round once you get down to a certain depth?

[tangsta]

second thoughts:
Since you plan to plumb the whole thing to your indoor system, I think the Metal Halides from the main display tank will keep the overall water temperature upwards within a controllable range (around 75 degrees during the winter is my best guess) This is certainly within a reasonable temperature; a standard heater should have no problem maintaining the whole system in the 78 degree range without incuring too much electricity consumption.
Frankly, I think this is a "non-issue" if you really think it through.

Now....after looking at your diagram.
If there is absolutely no room to fit the 4x4 vat, here is another idea:
You have the barrels spaced at a considerable distance apart. (how "long" is the proposed area btw???) You also have each barrel plumbed together "above surface" with PVC pipe. Assuming that the barrels are spaced at least a couple of feet apart, it would be very easy to tap into the pipe and install smaller/shallower tanks (at ground level) inbetween each barrel to increase usable surface area. In fact, standard rubbermaid beverage tubs would be about the correct size(22"x18") and cheap.
In other words, you would have five circular vessels plumbed in sequence instead of just three:
Barrel <--> Tub <--> Barrel <--> Tub <--> Barrel
This assumes that you have about 12 linear feet to work with. If not, then it's a moot point.

Another option if shorter distance is desired:
have one long/shallow frag tank in the middle (the cutdown 120 would be perfect!) with a 55 gallon barrel at each end.
Barrel <--> shallow frag tank <--> Barrel

This would require 9 linear feet of space.
The whole idea is to use "surface area" efficiently and capitalize on the free sunshine...all without incurring significant heat buildup due to the shallower tank.
Now that I think about it...this is probably your best option. 2 buried 55 gallon barrels is plenty of water-cooling capacity for this size of system...and it would literally DOUBLE your frag area.

[dendronepthya]

As others have mentioned, the problem with your system as you have designed it is the possibility of overcooling. The ground temperature here is about 55 degrees year round. If you are going to try and use geothermal, you have to have some control to avoid overcooling. The best systems I have heard of have a geothermal loop set on a thermostat, so it kicks on only when needed.

The other issue I see is the depth of the tanks. I have 55 gallon barrels and I think it would be tough to reach down into them to get a frag. 24" tall is the highest I would feel comfortable.

[sharkdude]

Thanks for the replies. You all have brought up some excellent points and suggestions.

I guess my next step is to dig some test holes to get some temperature readings at various depths underground. Although I only plan to bury the barrels to 24 inches deep.

I already sort of reverse light my main display reef anyways, 5 pm to 3am, so that may help stabilize temps and reduce the burden on a heater.

I like the idea of insulation, but I do want some cooling. maybe insulation on the proposed shed enclosure would help? or insulate the barrels and then use fans on thermostat on the shed?

I could adjust the flow through the prop system but then I'd need powerheads for current.

dendro: the corals will be supported on a rack about 10 inches below the water surface.

Tangsta: I've thought about using the cut down 120, but Jeff built that nice custom canopy for it that I'd hate to bo to waste. I'm thinking of keeping it in the garage for a vho and softie skimmerless prop system. I do like the idea of a shallow container tied into a barell or two. Depends on how much height I have available, but maybe a tank above the barell(s) would work? I want to keep it below window level.

[sharkdude]

Bugsy mentioned O2ManyFish's system, he has a 360 gal tank buried several feet and a much larger total system volume.

[sharkdude]

Anyone have any idea on an equation I can use to estimate potential cooling?

ie if I mix 100 gals of 70 degree water with 200 gals of 82 degree water, what will the temp be of my total volume?

I realize this is extremely simplified as I will be having water constantly pumping from one to the other but I hope to approximate a result.

[o2manyfish]

My Buried tank is 360g of 1400g of my system.

When the weather gets cool, I can vavle the tank off line.

My system maxes at 83deg in the summer time, when the ambient air is over 100 deg F and all the lights in the tank are turned on.

Dave B

[bugsy714]

Dave-how deep is it buried? What about nightime water temp changes?

[o2manyfish]

My tank is about 7' tall and only about 8" is above ground.

In the summer, night time temps don't drop that much, in the winter, the tank is offline. But it's still part of the system, so it goes from cooling to a low temp (70deg) cryptic zone.... but it doesn't stagnate and go bad.

Dave B

[gho]

Originally posted by sharkdude
Anyone have any idea on an equation I can use to estimate potential cooling?

ie if I mix 100 gals of 70 degree water with 200 gals of 82 degree water, what will the temp be of my total volume?

I realize this is extremely simplified as I will be having water constantly pumping from one to the other but I hope to approximate a result.

(100*70)+(200*82)/300 = 78

But....

If the 70 stays 70, i.e., you mix the water, it reads 78 and the cooling system is still at 70, then the temp will continue to drop until it equilibrates. That is it will drop to close to 70, depending on how much heat your halides and pumps are adding.

200gal is not a whole lot of water volume. At nite, when it cools off, if I don't shut my garage doors, the tank will chill to the point your heater kicks in, and I now have your vat about 85% full.

I'll have to add a temperature probe for you and record the shift.

Incidently, about 1/5 of the vat now gets direct sunlight in the afternoons for a few hours.

[coralfarm'n]

I think I can help a bit mabey here.

I would first look at http://insultarp.com if I was to use something on or in ground.

but with this stuff you should'nt even need the ground to insulate since it will do it all by its self.

I have thought similar plans out and would lean toward a above ground cinder block made vat mabey 6ft wide(or whatever you prefer) by however long by however high lined first with insultarp then with a epdm liner,next paint the outside of the cinder block vat with white Cool Seal from Lowes ..very simple but has to work

[coralfarm'n]

sorry to double post but you can also easily use 3/4 pvc pipe painted with white latex so it dont react detrimentaly with the greenhouse type plastic and fit a doulbe layer of plastic inflated with a blower over the vat,at one end install a exhaust fan at the other a shutter
for detailed plans visit
http://www.sherrysgreenhouse.com/oldsite/TomUhll.html

also you could consider under the epdm liner installing pex tubing connected to a tankless water heater

[o2manyfish]

Coral Farm -

Sorry but the theories don't always work as well in real application.

When you bring everything above ground, you end with large surface areas. While insulating them will reduce the heat from radiating in or out depending on the season, the fact is that temperatures will shift.

By burying some portion of water in the ground you are able to chill the water in the summertime. You also stabilize how rapidly the temperature changes.

If you are outside, and have the tank you described, when the winds kick up (think Wind Chill Factor) all that surface area is exchanging heat. Your liner and insulation will reduce how quickly this happens. But not having a water source protected from climate changes means that your system is quick to change.

With 1400g It amazes me how quickly a nice day, or a cool breeze can affect water temperature.

Dave B