Where in US would you set up a greenhouse?

[dendronepthya]

Cooling for me is pretty inexpensive. There is a single 48" exhaust fan that operates on a thermostat. In the summer months, my electricity bill is maybe $70.

[redox]

dendro what all do you grow?

[raaden]

This is turning into quite a nice topic!

First off, I am not sure I agree with the idea that a colder climate works better, atleast not in a blanket statement sort of way. Everyone that has asked me questions like this I have given the same response: "Before you go any further decide what you want from your operation, because this will determine many of the other unknowns for you", and I think this applies here most.

If you are only worried about the bottom line (not a good idea for the record) then I would definitely say that colder climate is not a good idea. While it is definitely easier to heat rather than to cool it is much much more expensive to heat, and even moreso if you are only going to heat the air. Dendro's (glad to see you back on here BTW ) comment is a good example of this. I don't have any solid numbers but after some good projections by a few different sources I am expecting my heating costs to range from $250-$500 except for maybe one really cold month a year when it will probably be around $600. Part of this has to do with the intensity and duration of sun period during the winter. Another part of this is that the winter nights normally do not get as cold so I can use the daylight to heat the vats, and use cooler indoor temps to cool them back off.

If you are at a more northern lattitude you will have a shorter sun period to heat the water, and colder nights requiring more heat input. Heating fuel costs are also more in northern lattitudes (unless you have a gas well onsite ). Another thing to consider is that the light intensity is much less in Northern Lattitudes especially in the winter so you will be recieving much less heat from the sun during those short days.

Recently I have been noticing also that most of the heat collected in the vats is directly from the sun and is irrespective of daytime temperature. This leads me to believed that cloudy days may actually be advantageous in two ways. Less overheating issues in the summertime, and better light spectrum. Cloudy skies (white clouds and not black clouds) actually produce a bluer hue to the light by filtering out the higher wavelengths which might better align the light spectrum although how much is debatable.

[michaeljames]

you should check out anthony calfos book on coral propagation, he has an entire section w/plans for greenhouses and tips on locations.

[RedSonja]

Personal conversation with Anthony Calfo: (paraphrased)

"If I were going to set up a greenhouse anywhere in the US, North Carolina would be my choice. Not very cold in the winter and summers are not as hot as they get farther south. Good sun exposure and nice temperate climate."

Maybe it was just because I told him we live in NC , but that is the gist of what he said (at SaltwaterU2)

-Sonja

[redox]

well Sonja I guess we came to the right place.

[ejocam]

My two choices would be:

San Diego, Great weather and access to corals from wholesalers and airport. Also close to the beach and Scripps Institute.

Oregon, cheap elctrical costs and decent weather. Property prices better than California but still on the high side.

[BeanAnimal]

Don't forget that Anthony had his greenhouse here in Pittsburgh and it did just fine.

I think there are pros and cons to many places. I suppose if you are willing to move to start a greenhouse, then the question of where is a valid one. I think otherwise, you can do it "right" just about anywhere reasonable.

[GreshamH]

Originally posted by ejocam
My two choices would be:

San Diego, Great weather and access to corals from wholesalers and airport. Also close to the beach and Scripps Institute.

Oregon, cheap elctrical costs and decent weather. Property prices better than California but still on the high side.

SD would be good, except for the power prices. If you set up in a AG zoned area in CA you can get MUCH lower energy prices. Dunno if SD has such areas, but the central and north noast have pleny of areas zoned for such use.

OR doesn't have a port of entry so you'd be counting on any wild broodstock (if importing yourself)it would be landing at Seattle.

[samtheman]

Have any of you looked at "Passive Solar Greenhouses"? They employ only the south wall for radiation, and everything else is insulated and covered. They can be used in Canada, where they were designed. They can be heat free if you utilize a water wall. This type of greenhouse may not need supplemental heat at all, and being in a northern latitude, cooling is easy.

[BeanAnimal]

I have not looked into them but understand the concept.

From what I gather, the heating bill for the local club members greenhouse is not bad at all. We filled the (12) 600 gallons tubs with aragonite sand for the DSBS in the dead of winter. The inside of the greenhouse was amazingly warm due to the sun. We actually had to turn off the heat while we were working.

I am aware that the temperature drops in the evening and the days are shorter in the winter, but I was still very amazed at the temperature inside the structure.

I have honestly never asked Anthony what it cost to run his facility. I suppose I could sometime (for that matter any of you could ask him).

[b0bby1]

just dont make it anywhere in the New York City area. in NJ, CT, and NY. land can cost a minimum of 200 grand per acre. i no my house is 300 per acre. i would go somewhere where it is not too too hot in the summer and not to cold in the winter. north caroline sounds good.

[redox]

Bean just wondering those dsbs ,were they used as sunlight heat acumulators as well ? If so do you discontinue use in the summer or just cover them from sunlight?

[BeanAnimal]

redox, the guys greenhouse consists of (12) 600 Gallon plastic stock tanks. Each has maybe 12" of aragonite sand in it (do not recall the exact depth).

I am sure that they act as a heatsink and help to maintain the tanks overall stable temperature. They are part of the stock tanks, so no they will not get removed or covered.

You did just make me think of one thing. We did not put any type of insulation under the tanks (there fairly thick layer of gravel).

I think if I were to design it now I would have put each stock tank on a 2" layer of foam insulation to keep the ground from sucking the heat of the the tank in the winter. Hrmmm

[redox]

I forgot there is a frost line where you are . that is a thing I dont have to deal with

[spike78]

If you are an outdoorsy type, I would say Bellingham Washington. Beautiful geography, cheap land, REALLY cheap electricity, 90 minutes to either Seattle or Vancouver BC.
You are right on the Pacific coast and only a short drive from some of the country's skiing at Mt. Baker and Whistler BC.
Bellingham is also in a bit of a rain shadow so weather is often very mild.

[b0bby1]

but remember this guy is from indiana, so i dont think he does much skiing. spike78, how do you like whistler? i go skiing in vermont about 20 times a winter and have gone to jackson hole, wyoming to ski once. now we are looking for new places to go. my dad has been to big sky, montana and vail, colorado. he said vail was bad though, its to built up and alot of rich people that don't know how to ski go there.

[castor]

Mmmm, I like a discussion. I really am serious about this though. I tried starting a business a year ago as a seller/retailer which never got far off the ground (near fatal car accident, lost my stock while in a coma, yeah, things like that happen but I am well again and in the working force with a good job and saving up over the next year or two) People always say don't turn a hobby into a job, you'll hate the hobby but it's different for me, hard to explain and I'm not in it to just make a buck, okay, that is the main reason but still, coral reefs are starting to die around the world and if we can start to cultivate them more and more and have a more steady supply and not take from reefs as much and provide a more robust coral..... Sorry, I go on tangents sometimes. I have some setup ideas that I really think would work - I have the mockup working right now, just finished it today, completely simulates ocean conditions, sorry guys, for my eyes only for now. Over the next 6 months I will see how well it works with growth as the main factor and make tweaks as I go. From there I plan to build up blueprints of the GH and factor in all costs so I know I have enough to get it running and keep it running. Any and all info you guys can help me with about location and costs to factor in is really appreciated. If this all works out after the next 3-4 years I hope to help plant GH's where I can and share my setups. I know, I dream big but somebody has to. This isn't a bragging thing but I was ranked in the top 150 students in my state in high school so I really think I can do this, it will just take a LOT of work but I have worked hard just to survive (illness that can be fatal) so I have the drive to do anything.

If it doesn't work, hey I tried. I plan to soak up as much info on propagation over the next year as I can, so any good links, books (calfo, I know that) or what not you can throw at me is good.

[raaden]

BeanAnimal,

I believe you are referring to Steven, and if so he and Anthony were/are working with a really really huge advantage that none of the rest of us will have. The both got free heat by way of having a natural gas well onsite. I hope noone takes this the wrong way, but saying his bill was not much is not valid for the rest of us since the largest expense is free for him. What would be a better explanation would be to figure in what he would have been spending on heating and then compare his expenses.

As far as insulating the bottoms of the tanks you have a very good idea, and a 12-18" air space under the tanks should do very well for that. I have 12" of air with 5" of gravel and am not expecting to have problems with ground heat loss.

Castor,
Excuse me while I channel redox for a moment:
I am not sure that stating that your setup is "for my eyes only" in one sentence and then asking for help in the next is a very good way of sharing information. I understand everyone wants to protect any IP they might think they have, but if that is the case why even bring it up. I will be honest that one thing that kinda burns me is that this forum/hobby has become so great by information and technique sharing, but as soon as money comes into it most abruptly stop sharing... anyway... I hope things work out well for you and I am sure having gone through what you already have you will make this work

[BeanAnimal]

Yes Raaden, I am talking about Steven. I did not drop the name because it did not seem appropriate to the conversation. He is just a guy with a greenhouse here in Western Pa

You are correct about the gas, and that honestly slipped my mind when I mentioned the heating cost.

This does say something to the fact that a LOCATION has more to do with just choosing a climate. A gas well on the property, well water (with city to fall back on) and discounted land surely do help, if not almost eliminate overhead. Will I be asking the father-in-law if I can build a GH on his farm... not anytime soon!

That said [the gas issue], the greenhouse is amazingly warm in the cold weather. As I mentioned, it was too hot to carry sand buckets when we filled the stock tanks. Once the sand was in and the door was closed, it was very comfortable. As I also mentioned, nightfall will surely be colder and require the bulk of the heating.

A heat pump setup may help to maintain the tank temps on cold nights. I am sure with some thought a system that is simple and reliable could be setup (similar to the solar pool heaters).

I had figured a few inches of foamboard would decouple the floor, but your idea of using airspace may even be better if it is easily achievable.

Yeah kind bothersome when somebody says "I got the greatest thing in the world, but I can't show ya". Then why bother mentioning it

[castor]

Okay, let me explain why it is for my eyes only right now. Not that I want to completely keep it a secret, more that it looks really getto and I'm not sure it will work at all and am waiting until I can test it in working conditions with corals which will be a while. I'm not really asking for trade secrets or anything, just public information that I can get my mind around with. If the setup does work I do plan to share it down the road so others can grow cheaply.

[raaden]

Castor,

Didn't mean to call you out ( I realized after I sent it that it was a bit over the top, apologies), I think I am just cranky after having spent 2 weeks fighting with the cable company to get my internet access back online to no avail. I have posted with you before and really didn't mean to imply that you were the problem.

The point of what I was trying to say was that I have tried to be as open as I can with my operation, so that others can get involved and not have to go through the same difficulties as I have, and sometimes it seems as though I am banging my head into a wall. I can't tell you how many people sent me emails while I was working on the business plan telling me that they really appreciated that I was willing to share it with everyone. Then they would go on to say that they adding to it, and changing things and when I would write back to them asking what they were changing or adding they would tell me that they didn't want to share the information since it was proprietary to their business. Wha..

I have since come to the realization that everyone has their own methods of doing things and mine just happens to be a pretty open book sort of way. Mostly I feel that the success any single operation is tied to the hobby and if the sources of product for the hobby dry up then prices go up too high for anyone to afford the hobby and any operations are going to go away.


Back to the regularly scheduled discussion;

I think Anthony actually mentioned in his book that he thought Central or Western NC was a good location, but it has been a while since I read it cover to cover.

I am really starting to believe in the passive solar concept. It is much more involved in setting up but I think if done right it could provide some serious benefits.

[redox]

Brian Im sorry your running into issues with your system but remember you did it on a low cost level. just mark it up to r@d . on the same note I was toying with the idea of reintroducing o3 into the mix and tried to fire up my 1500$ o3 generator and realized it was basically fried from salt corrosion Im sorry that people are pluging you for info and not sharing back. just remember they think they got it figured out and they might not really have a clue

[BeanAnimal]

Would it not be prudent to insulate the sides and bottoms of the stock tanks (maybe both summer and winter)?

Though the water surface and evaporation are where most of the heat will be given up or absorbed (sun), the large surface area on the sides and bottoms of the tanks is certainly something to consider, they they glass, concrete or plastic.

If one were to do this full time, then covering (insulating) the stock tanks on winter evenings after sundown would certainly provide for a decrease in evaporation and convective cooling.

Furthermore, when considering heating OR cooling options, maybe hydronic is something to look into. A concrete slab with insulation would be needed and their is certainly a cost.

Another option is certainly a large geothermal loop for summer cooling.

A hoop style greenhouse is certainly cheaper, but what about using a hipwall of insulated block to cut down on some of the exposed area. The hoops could easily rest on the greenhouse.

In addition, cutting down on the overall air volume in the greenhouse would make sense for both heating and cooling. All you need is the headroom to work comfortable. You do not need 8' arches.

Just some thoughts.

[rharr21]

Don't move to South Louisiana! I work in the Horticulture industry and I can tell you from experience, it would be too expensive to keep the gh cool.