why is change so difficult to accept

[sanababit]

i have been reading a lot of posts since i started this wonderful hobby and noticed a lot of changes in ideas and methods on doing things, like using garlic to help fish with their inmune system to fight off ich, using a denitrifier to control nitrates to help control algae, cyano, and save salt by not changing water that often (probably 10%-15% once a month is good), using carbon 24/7 to help clear up water and changing it every month, there are so many combinations on doing things that everytime i come to a post like, i have high nitrates how can i control them, i see mostly "do water changes", "control feedings", "better skimmer" which do sometimes work btw, but when someone posts use a denitrifier which do work also, some people post that they sometimes work, or you could crash your tank; well if you do a water change you could crash your tank too if the salinity or temp is off. my point is, change is good, it means that there are other ways of doing things, just that people dont take change easily, a fellow reefer friend of mine with some years experience told me that not so long ago the thing to use was an undergravel filter and they did not use skimmers which for now standards this is unheardoff

i hope to hear comments on this topic, if you have other methods on doing things, maintenance, feedings, filtering, disease control etc, thanks

sana

[kau_cinta_ku]

thats why it is called advice. and you get diff. ppls opinions. then you take all the opinions and research yourself to see what will work best for your needs.

[McTeague]

Also most people just repeat what they have read and always recommend the equipment they have or the methods they use.

[Agu]

I think there are so many different ways of reaching the same goal it can be intimidating. I see change all the time.

Disease control is a prime example. Now that more people are quarantining their fish there are fewer "I have ick" posts. The latest change is quarantining corals. Just a couple of years ago very few people even considered the pests that could be introduced by a single frag. Now people consider it standard practice to QT corals and treat them if necessary before putting them in their main tanks.

What often seems like a repeat of the same advice is just solid advice because it works. Doesn't mean there aren't alternative methodologies.


BTW, I used to use skimmers , they're on a shelf in the garage now.

[Skepperz]

Hmmmm......... people don't like change full stop! No matter what it is! Takes them out of their comfort zone lol! Something that not all people choose to do. Ok here is an example....... if you were an arrogant person for your whole life and liked it do you think you would change? You can tell allot about the people who argue to the death in some of these threads! If you know what I mean.........lol bit deep but anyway :-)

[m2434]

Having kept reef aquariums for sometime now I've seen a lot of gimics. There are so many factors, it is tough to prove or disprove many. Companies, always seem to target aquarists with new marketing gimics and aquarists, fearful of tank crashes, are a prone to being taken advantage of. I have personally bought snake oil on more than one occasion. There are many people who say that garlic and UV etc.. are the greatest things since sliced bread. The problem is there are also lots of people who use these with no success at all. Worse, take someone who is told garlic is a cure all. They have a fish with ich. Instead of removing and treating with tried and true methods, they just use garlic. Now instead of one infected fish, they have many and they all die... I've seen this many times in the years I've been reading these forums.

Just because you have good results, does not prove the method works. If it does really work, it will eventually become standard. Something like UV, however has been around for decades. Largely as the result of the aquaculture industry, millions of dollars have been invested in testing the method, and all of the evidence shows it is of little use, for anything other than green-water.

A common problem, is people have tanks in less than ideal condition, they are now more vigilante and take care of their tanks better. However, they don't see results, because in this hobby, everything takes time. Now they give up and go out and buy a UV filter. At the same time, their previous efforts are catching up, now they think, wow I added UV and my tank looks great. The point is, this is not a controlled experiment, but there have been many controlled experiments that show it is not really so useful.

One thing I've learned is that those who buy snake oil better have a nice trust funds

[greenbean36191]

A lot of the change in the hobby is cyclical. Some of the stuff that seems like progress is really just a rehash of old stuff that fell out of favor for a reason. Stubborn old salts may really just be the people that remember why people stopped doing things that way in the first place.

A good bit of the change is also based on bastardized science so there's good reason to be resistant to it. Someone reads something and learns just enough about it to be dangerous and comes up with some new method. One that comes to mind is "cryptic zones."

[Skepperz]

As they say "If it aint broke why fix it"

OR

IS it "Change is as good as a holliday"

Which one takes you to a higher place?

[old salty]

Change isn't too difficult to accept. It's just that the industry backing this hobby is overwhelmed with absolute crap in the prettiest bottles you have ever seen. This isn't snobbery, it's instinct. Instincts that have been developed through many years and even more dollars. These very instincts want me to spend my money wisely, as I have not done in the past.

I don't need to purchase a bottle of Purple Up to know that this is one of the most worthless products that this hobby has to offer. It's made by Seachem; a company that makes one of the best planted tank fertilizers that I know of. Is this considered resistance to change, or a keen understanding that people will sell me something for the sake of selling me something?

Despite what some freelance aqua-guru stated in his latest monthly ode to himself, I absolutely refuse to feed garlic to any of my fish, . Does it cure ich?? I wouldn't know; none of my fish have ich because I adhere to painstaking quarantine practices. What I do know is garlic gives me some SERIOUS heartburn. I'm not sure if fish get heartburn or not, but I know how uncomfortable it can be. Should I give them some Tums or Rolaids to help them along?


Change can be good, but instincts should never be overlooked.

[george81]

Originally posted by sanababit
i have been reading a lot of posts since i started this wonderful hobby and noticed a lot of changes in ideas and methods on doing things, like using garlic to help fish with their inmune system to fight off ich, using a denitrifier to control nitrates to help control algae, cyano, and save salt by not changing water that often (probably 10%-15% once a month is good), using carbon 24/7 to help clear up water and changing it every month, there are so many combinations on doing things that everytime i come to a post like, i have high nitrates how can i control them, i see mostly "do water changes", "control feedings", "better skimmer" which do sometimes work btw, but when someone posts use a denitrifier which do work also, some people post that they sometimes work, or you could crash your tank; well if you do a water change you could crash your tank too if the salinity or temp is off. my point is, change is good, it means that there are other ways of doing things, just that people dont take change easily, a fellow reefer friend of mine with some years experience told me that not so long ago the thing to use was an undergravel filter and they did not use skimmers which for now standards this is unheardoff

i hope to hear comments on this topic, if you have other methods on doing things, maintenance, feedings, filtering, disease control etc, thanks

sana

why people shoot down things like denitrifires? because they are band aid solutions...once you stop using it the problem comes back. Use mother nature and do stuff right the first time, get the proper amount of live rock, get enough sand get a sump and fuge..and let mother nature do her thing. why use a man made band aid? l
lets see.....has anyone seen that huge man made denitirfire in the ocean? i must have missed it........the denitrifier i see is liverock, sand and a perfectly balanced ecosystem. what we should all be striving to achieve with our tanks.

water changes 10-15% monthly to save on salt? this is not a cheap hobby the money that is being saved on salt is being put toward snake oil products...like denitrifiers...a perfect example of stuff not getting done right.

to comment on tanks crashing from water changes...if you cant perform a water change carefully enough you have bigger issues than you re tank crashing..and you shouldnt be in this hobby..let alone taking care of any living thing....a tank crash from water change is pure laziness and lack of attention.

thats my two cents

[Skepperz]

So whos going to start the Fact sheet ;-)

[capn_hylinur]

Originally posted by kau_cinta_ku
thats why it is called advice. and you get diff. ppls opinions. then you take all the opinions and research yourself to see what will work best for your needs.

I'll second what Sam says here.
and add another characteristic for understanding and accepting change is keeping an open mind.

[Lotus99]

I think that if someone finds something is working for them, they're less willing to change. If your fish are healthy and your corals are growing well, why change anything?

I guess some people get lucky with their systems, or find a way to make something work that isn't necessarily something others can duplicate.

Take, for example, UGF systems. Paul B has had his working for years, and has a healthy tank. Would anyone recommend a "classic" UGF to someone new to the hobby? Probably not. It works for Paul under his set of parameters and with his setup, but that doesn't mean that any old UGF system will work for anyone. I guess a live rock system is slightly more foolproof, and works with a greater number of system variations.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it

Personally, I tend to weigh new methods/equipment ideas with my knowledge of freshwater and fish biology, etc. If it makes sense to me, I'll try it.

[sanababit]

another example guys, is the temp factor, i read a thread that if the temp fluctuates more than 2 degrees then your fish would get stressed, and could get sick, i just cant believe this, fish live in the ocean wheres there ocean currents which could fluctuate the temps alot, i dont really keep the temp stable in my tank it goes down to 73 at night and 77 day, summer 80 night 85 day and still havent lost a single thing because of temperature.

[capn_hylinur]

Originally posted by sanababit
another example guys, is the temp factor, i read a thread that if the temp fluctuates more than 2 degrees then your fish would get stressed, and could get sick, i just cant believe this, fish live in the ocean wheres there ocean currents which could fluctuate the temps alot, i dont really keep the temp stable in my tank it goes down to 73 at night and 77 day, summer 80 night 85 day and still havent lost a single thing because of temperature.

could this be the thread?


http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...misconceptions

[Jocephus]

I think purple up is great for making your tank purple, but then, that's what they said it does. I think undergravel filters are great too, you just have to dedicate more time to maintenance. But yes, I agree that people relay whatever they've read a hundred times in posts as religion, and it's a shame. Some people have no idea why what they're saying may or may not work depending on a given situation, but still blast folks who offer other, less mainstream ideas. People being people, I guess.

[stevelkaneval]

So true to everyone that has posted. I don't like the whole bb or dsb, and the all important tap water subject. Like so many have said before me, if it aint broke dont fix it, and if its working why risk a change that may be negative to your tank.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

IMO, the reason so many things appear to "work", including some in the first and subsequent posts that I believe are not optimal, is because living things are remarkably resilient. Most organisms can live in far from optimal conditions, without the typical hobbyist noticing anything amiss.

Does that mean it is a good idea to keep things suboptimal? Depends on your point of view, but it is not my goal in reef keeping.

There are also many ways to accomplish many tasks, but many folks, especially newbies assume that if something works in one tank it will work in all tanks. That is far from reality. Different situations demand different approaches, and few if any husbandry practices are universally the "best".

Those that may work in some situations and not in others include tap water (it varies from house to house), different methods of supplementation (different tanks have different levels of calcium and alkalinity demand, for example), different methods of nutrient export (different tanks have different levels of export requirements, for example), etc. etc.

[kathainbowen]

I had a big, long-winded post about the breakdown between hobbyists into two distinctive camps of the more "conservative" and "liberal" areas of problem solving, but I deleted it.

Now, much of what was said was, for the most part, really honest and truthful reasons for suggesting what would be considered more traditional solutions. That is to say, people tend to suggest water changes, refugiums, larger skimmers, and more solutions to address the chemical nature of the water to address the root issue to a problem as opposed to just fixing the surface issue (ie "I put in XYZProduct to kill red slime immediately" as opposed to "I cut down my phosphates, ot my nitrates down really low and adjusted the flow in my tank to eliminate dead patches so cyanobacteria just CANNOT grow in my tank.")



However, and I'm certain if someone mentioned it or not, but bringing a tank into Reef Central does tend to have a strange effect on people. See, you're taking your tank something you can touch, smell, hear, see, test, adjust, etc, and turning it into an abstraction through the internet. We cannot directly influence your tank and anything we say has a delayed reaction, as opposed to your immediate influence on the tank due to proximity. Your tank is really isolated from us. There are an infinite amount of minute and tiny factors going into a tank and what could be affecting a problem that we may not be aware of (Such as "why are my fish dying?" - you could have a pest hitchhiker like an octopus or mantis shrimp that YOU as the keeper aren't even aware of!) As such, other hobbyists may be more timid to offer radical advice out of a fear of screwing up your tank and messing something up. My tank is beside my bed, and I can immediately fix a simple mistake or judgment error I may have made. Your tank could be THOUSANDS of miles away (I think we even have members in South African, which is pretty much as far away from my sleepy NJ commuterville as I could imagine!), and, to animals that are so completely and directly affected by their environment such as corals and fish, every second can be critical if an error has been made. This often leads to more conversative suggestions as solutions. A water change is something that, when done right, is far less likely to create a worse problem, as opposed to an exotic product that could have unusual results and provoke strange reactions in any given situation.




So.... I hoped this has helped.

[sanababit]

amen greenbean, love your avatar BTW

[TheOtherReefer]

Be happy for the internet. That change was a revolution in this hobby. When I started, it was trial and error.

[phenom5]

It's not that I dislike change, but I guess I'm in the if it ain't broke camp. I've been relatively successful doing things the way that I have been doing them for several years. Why would I go out and spend good money on the new, latest & greatest piece of equipment, or additive? To fix something that doesn't need fixing? No thanks.

why people shoot down things like denitrifires? because they are band aid solutions...once you stop using it the problem comes back. Use mother nature and do stuff right the first time, get the proper amount of live rock, get enough sand get a sump and fuge..and let mother nature do her thing. why use a man made band aid? l
lets see.....has anyone seen that huge man made denitirfire in the ocean? i must have missed it........the denitrifier i see is liverock, sand and a perfectly balanced ecosystem. what we should all be striving to achieve with our tanks.

No offense intended George, but I really dislike this argument. The differences between our tanks and the ocean are so vast, it's really apples to elephants. Sure, we try to emulate the ocean environment to the best of our abilities, but until we have tanks filled with a bagillion gallons of water, with a bagillion tons of sand, we aren't even close.

[sanababit]

george, on your comment about denitrifiers being a band aid solutions because when you put them off line nitrate will come back; well wouldn't you say that changing water are band aid solutions too because when you stop doing them you get nitrates back. no offense but like i said there are different ways of doing things, trying it like mother nature intended it to be would be the right way to go, but if mother nature has been bad to my tank i would like to try other things, and not be put down about it.

sana

[capn_hylinur]

[i]

A good bit of the change is also based on bastardized science so there's good reason to be resistant to it. Someone reads something and learns just enough about it to be dangerous and comes up with some new method. One that comes to mind is "cryptic zones." [/B]

is it the concept of zones with in a reef tank what you consider "dangerous"
just curious here--definetly not qualified to argue with you

[greenbean36191]

No. I didn't mean that the method is dangerous, though some others are. I meant the people who come up with the methods are dangerous. They read a tiny snippet of something that gives them a bright idea for some new method, but they don't do much research on the limitations or possible side effects. Someone read that mangroves are important for keeping water quality good for reefs and mangrove filters became all the rage even though they're of very little use in captivity. "Cryptic zone filtration" was just another example.

Basically I see new methods as useless/dangerous until proven otherwise (and a lot of times we already know the answer before a method makes its debut in the hobby). If that makes me resistant to change, that's fine. It also makes me resistant to killing my corals or wasting my money throwing new junk in the tank.