TOTAL DISASTER. Or, the dangers of cooking with vinegar

BigRedSpecial · #1 10/29/2007, 06:58 PM

So... I've just wiped out half my tank.

I've been having a real anemone problem lately, both aiptasia and Orange Ball varieties. I usually blast them with boiling water, which doesn't always work. I'd read of people using boiling vinegar, which the lfs also recommended.

So, like an idiot, I boiled the vinegar in the kettle, not thinking that metal + acid = metal ions. Long story short, I dosed my tank with copper. First mistake.

Second mistake: I noticed the impact right away, and in a panic, dosed with dechlorinator, thinking it would neutralize the copper. Seachem tells me all I did was reduce the Cu 2+ to Cu+, which apparently is ten times as toxic. Yay me.

I did a 15% water change right away(all the water I had on hand). That was just before I went to bed; this morning my two shrimp, a blood and a cleaner, were dead; leaving nothing but cleanup crew in the tank(fish are in a hospital tank being treated for ich).

This morning I did another 25%WC, followed by a 40% this afternoon; I also placed two bags of carbon in a hob filter. As of right now, my snails aren't moving(my favorite of which, a stomatella hitchhiker, is dead). I believe a turbo and 2 crowned astrea's will be dead soon; featherdusters are semi retracted, and several hitchhiker mollusks have closed up and probably won't make it. I've also seen dozens of dead amphipods.

As it stands right now, the only unaffected inhabitants are hermits and isopods(and possibly copepods).

SO needless to say, I feel incredibly ****ty for killing most of my livestock, especially since I can't afford to replace them(student). I've order Cuprisorb to try and fix the problem, and Joe's juice to prevent it from happening again.

So the moral of the story is, you can never be careful enough when it comes to mixing reefs with anything non-reef, even if it is perfectly safe for us.

I do have a question though. My water has become very cloudy, almost milky. I'm assuming it is dissolved calcium precipitating out of the water, but what can be causing this? the pH is around 7.8 right now, which is as high as my tank ever goes for some reason. The odd thing is, with every water change it gets worse.

So, what would cause calcium to precipitate?

seapug · #2 10/29/2007, 07:34 PM

Sounds like a bacterial bloom, but who knows. After this story I'm glad I shell out the $8 for a package of Aptasia Control.

BigRedSpecial · #3 10/29/2007, 08:08 PM

not a bacterial bloom... not opaque like a bloom, just slightly hazy. I really do think it is calcium precipitating out, as the haze increases slightly immediately after the WC.

You're right though, Joe's Juice has never seemed like such a deal.

jspine01 · #4 10/29/2007, 08:58 PM

wow..... gonna put this on the list of things not to do, Joe's juice it is

BigRedSpecial · #5 10/29/2007, 09:03 PM

yeah that's the main reason I posted this, to ensure no one else makes my mistake. I've heard about using vinegar from a lot of different sources; just goes to say you can't believe everything you hear.

ccorpse27 · #6 10/29/2007, 09:27 PM

I found that only pep shrimp would take care of my aiptasia. None of the products out there worked for me.

Craig Lambert · #7 10/29/2007, 09:51 PM

Vinegar immediatly and dramatically lowers pH ..... I don't think copper was the cause.

BigRedSpecial · #8 10/29/2007, 09:56 PM

the first thing I suspected was pH drop; but it only went down to about 7.5, from 7.8. Besides, it was only that low for 3-4 hours, and has been at 7.7+ for over 24 hours now, yet things are still dying. Another supporting fact for my theory is that the copper element in the kettle is now very light reddish brown - as in, all the oxidized copper on the surface has been removed. Metal + acid = metal ions.

Craig Lambert · #9 10/29/2007, 09:58 PM

I think it went alot lower than 7.5. The only reason it is 7.8 now is due to the massive amount of water changes you've done. I would also check Alkalinity, as low pH leads to low Alk, which causes big problems. How much vinegar went in the tank? What size is it?

BigRedSpecial · #10 10/29/2007, 10:00 PM

according to the test kit it only dipped to 7.5; take what you will from that. I should test alk though; I haven't since all this started.

What about the haziness, do you have any idea what would cause that?

Craig Lambert · #11 10/29/2007, 10:01 PM

How much vinegar, and what size is the tank?

BigRedSpecial · #12 10/29/2007, 10:07 PM

sorry didn't see that in your last post... tank is 10 gallons, 14lbs rock, aragonite substrate... 3 lbs I believe, enough for a 1.5 inch bed.

I'm not sure on the amount of vinegar. I was using a syringe that holds 15mL, so I'd estimate anywhere from 75 to 120mL.

Craig Lambert · #13 10/29/2007, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BigRedSpecial
sorry didn't see that in your last post... tank is 10 gallons, 14lbs rock, aragonite substrate... 3 lbs I believe, enough for a 1.5 inch bed.

I'm not sure on the amount of vinegar. I was using a syringe that holds 15mL, so I'd estimate anywhere from 75 to 120mL.

Looks like Vinegar overdose. Here is a segment from an article by Randy Holmes-Farley:

B. Direct addition of vinegar. Commercial distilled white vinegar (typically 5% acetic acid or "5% acidity") can be used to instantly reduce aquarium pH. Do not use wine vinegars as they may contain undesirable organics in addition to the acetic acid.

I recommend adding 1 mL of distilled white vinegar per gallon of tank water to initially reduce pH by about 0.3 units. Once again, add it to a high flow area away from organisms (such as in a sump). The local pH where it first is added will be very low. Going about this procedure slowly is better than proceeding too fast. If you do not have a sump, add it especially slowly. The lower the aquarium's alkalinity, the larger will be the pH drop. Also, the higher the pH, the smaller will be the pH drop, because the buffering of seawater declines steadily as the pH drops from about 9 to 7.5. Remember, there may be an additional, later drop in pH as the vinegar is metabolized to carbon dioxide.

Saldarya · #14 10/29/2007, 10:12 PM

Well, if you did dose your tank with Copper.....at least you can pull your fish out of quarantine and put them in tank to treat the ich now...

Of course I am kidding, but always looking on the bright side......

Craig Lambert · #15 10/29/2007, 10:14 PM

I would also suggest picking up a poli -filter and running it in a good flow area for 24 hours. If it turns blue you have a copper problem, if not, you're in the clear. I think it's possible that your tank is clear of copper.

BigRedSpecial · #16 10/29/2007, 10:21 PM

wow... I had no idea it was that potent. I guess the test kit was wrong(big surprise).

This begs the question: If it is so damn potent, why the hell did several sources recommend vinegar? seems like horrible information to me.

Now I'm really worried about the kH; I'm guessing that could be what is causing the cloudiness.

I'm going to test it now.

Craig Lambert · #17 10/29/2007, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BigRedSpecial
wow... I had no idea it was that potent. I guess the test kit was wrong(big surprise).

This begs the question: If it is so damn potent, why the hell did several sources recommend vinegar? seems like horrible information to me.

Now I'm really worried about the kH; I'm guessing that could be what is causing the cloudiness.

I'm going to test it now.

It's safe to use in the correct dose. This is one of the challenges in running a small reef tank. You have very little margin for error.

Ehaze · #18 10/29/2007, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by seapug
Sounds like a bacterial bloom, but who knows. After this story I'm glad I shell out the $8 for a package of Aptasia Control.

Where did you buy the cleanup crew?

BigRedSpecial · #19 10/29/2007, 10:39 PM

Ok, pH is at 7.7, alk is 11 dkH. As a reference, the new salt water I have aerating in the same room now is at pH 8.0.

Is there anything else I should be keeping an eye on? should I check calcium?

Saldarya: I try to look on the bright side as well, it makes things look less apocalyptic. I said the same thing earlier - at least I've eradicated the ich.

EDIT: I meant salt water, not fresh.

BigRedSpecial · #20 10/30/2007, 10:17 AM

I just ran a full battery of tests, this is how it looks as of noon:
pH 7.7
kH 11 dkH
SG 1.024/33ppt
Ca 340mg/l
NH3/NH4, NO2, NO3 all 0
PO4 0
Cu is showing zero, but I don't trust the kit at all(seachem) as it barely picks up a reading from my hospital tank which is being treated with cupramine; it has also given me three different readings at the same time from the same water.

I'm starting to think it was pH that did it now though; if it were copper, wouldn't I being seeing ammonia spikes?

JokerGirl · #21 10/30/2007, 11:21 AM

I'm not too sure why you used Dechlorinator in hopes of neutralizing Copper. Cl and Cu are two different elements. Chlorine is a gas, which is what you are trying to neutralize with the dechlorinator. Copper will not neutralize using a dechlorinator, nor can the dechlorinator reduce it's 2+ charge to a + charge.

You may not be necessarily showing an ammonia spike at this moment because of the large water changes that you have done.

hyperfocal · #22 10/30/2007, 12:29 PM

Modern copper cookware is usually steel-clad (since copper reacts with acidic foods, plus too much copper is also bad for people). Is your kettle an antique copper one?

Redfish · #23 10/30/2007, 12:57 PM

There are several factors in play here. First vinegar acts as a carbon source for bacteria that may be carbon limited. The cloudiness is the result of that bloom most likely. The bacteria themselves should not be harmful. The problem is that they consume enormous amounts of oxygen during the massive reproduction. The lack of oxygen can be deadly.

Second, while you may have introduced copper, I find it hard to believe that you introduced enough to have an immediate impact. Dechlorinators such as prime do in fact reduce copper from +2 to + which is many times as toxic but i still beleive that is not the problem.

I don't think either of these issues were your short term problem since you said you noticed the problem immediately. The real problem was the pH drop. 75-120ml of Vinegar in your tank dropped the pH immediately and radically. You instantly lowered the pH to probably 5.0 or lower easily. The water changes and buffering capacity brought it back up but after the damage was done.

The copper, if any existed, can be removed with carbon, cuprisorb or a poly pad.

aninjaatemyshoe · #24 10/30/2007, 01:13 PM

You must have had one hell of an aiptasia problem to use upwards of 75mL of vinegar. It should take at the most a quarter to a half mL vinegar per larger anemone. Even then, you shouldn't attempt doing them all at once because of the effect the vinegar can have. Also, you probably don't want that much dying in your tank at once either.

BigRedSpecial · #25 10/30/2007, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JokerGirl
I'm not too sure why you used Dechlorinator in hopes of neutralizing Copper. Cl and Cu are two different elements. Chlorine is a gas, which is what you are trying to neutralize with the dechlorinator. Copper will not neutralize using a dechlorinator, nor can the dechlorinator reduce it's 2+ charge to a + charge.

You may not be necessarily showing an ammonia spike at this moment because of the large water changes that you have done.

I used dechlorinator because in addition to neutralizing Cl, it also neutralizes heavy metals; I assumed Cu would be considered a heavy metal.

The dechlor can in fact reduce Cu 2+, according to Seachem's website.

Quote:

Originally posted by hyperfocal
Modern copper cookware is usually steel-clad (since copper reacts with acidic foods, plus too much copper is also bad for people). Is your kettle an antique copper one?

Nope, it was an electric kettle, with a copper heating element in it.