New tank check in.

BigJPDC · #1 10/23/2006, 08:55 AM

Day 2. Every noob thread has pictures, I'll get my gallery updated soon. It is time to replace those stand construction pix. It seems like a lifetime ago that I built that thing.

Hello RC. I haven't posted in a while as I relocated and have finally escalated from the 'planning' stage to the 'doing' stages. I probably have enough questions for five threads but I will be as brief as I can. Even after posting noob questions for ten months things have taken on a sense of urgency and uncertainity.

Two days ago I filled my AGA RR 65 with 80 lbs indo pacific arag-alive sand, 40 lbs Tahitian moon sand and however many gallons of RO\DI + InstOcean salt water it took to get everything cooperating. The Typhoon III is nothing short of what everybody says about it. 0 tds and total plug and play. I have it plumbed into the water line running to the outside garden hose, and actually divert my wastewater to the pool, so I just flip a couple of knobs and have RO.

After short battles with the tuning of the return flow and a closed loop redesign, I think I am mostly into the chemistry part of things now. My testing tells me that my salinity is around 1.027, ph at 8.4 and 0 for trite and trate. I added an extra gallon of RO\DI last night to try and get the salinity lowered.

So, my immediate tasks are to fix one leak in the return line and redo the CL. I hope to work on LR this weekend but I feel like I should have the $5 in PVC configured correctly before I support $1,000 of LR with it. Plus, I want to be able to build the rock pillars I want and take my time with the aquascaping.
I want to make sure that there isn't anything I should be doing right now, as I wait for the nitrogen cycle to work itself out. I have a carbon bag in the sump and the temperature is steady between 78-79. I am not sure that the carbon is doing anything because the water is still cloudy and crappy.

It's OK to not be putting the LR in right away, right? How long could I wait before I jeopardize the LS?
When should I be doing water changes?
When do I put a shrimp or fish food in the water to kick things off? I don't know what I should be waiting for or watching out for.
My skimmer doesn't do anything but generate tons of bubbles so I have it off - would I wait on that too?

thanks again,
jp

bertoni · #2 10/23/2006, 09:17 PM

Waiting for the live rock is fine. That live sand will be fine indefinitely, really. I wouldn't add any shrimp since there isn't really any filter that needs to be started. The skimmer can wait, although running it now might allow it to break in. Skimmers seem to bubble sometimes when they're brand new.

ek9vboi · #3 10/23/2006, 09:53 PM

If you CL isn't ready then just have a powerhead or 2 in the tank to circulate the water. As for the LR, it would be best to have the LR in with the new LS so it goes through 1 cycle. Adding a shrimp will help kick it off.

Waterchanges - if you can do a decent amount per week even though the cycle. I would say 5-10g a week would be great.

Run the skimmer now, fix all the bugs that are wrong with it while it cycles and not when livestock are in the tank. It is important to take time and make sure everything works well before adding livestock. During the "cycle" period, try to get the chemistry correct. If you want after the cycle, start on a Kalkwasser drip method to replemish water loss though evaporation. It will help get the alk, pH, and calcium levels up to par and start the coralline algae growth.

BigJPDC · #4 10/24/2006, 07:21 AM

Thank you!
The return from the sump to the SeaSwirl is working fine, except for a small leak, so I have what I think is good circulation.
I saw what I think is a good selection of cured LR at an LFS near me last night, so I am going with the idea of bringing a bunch home to aquascape and store in a tub until I have all my plumbing worked out. I'll also start running the skimmer a couple hours a day to break it in and get a 5g water change ready for the end of the week.

I am all about taking as long as neccessary before adding livestock, I just don't know what I should be looking for in the meantime and that's the weird part.

jp

BigJPDC · #5 10/24/2006, 08:41 AM

Thought I would add a shot of the tank, in it's new home and final location - formal living room off the foyer. This is after about 24 hours of adding water, with only the diy moonlights on. You can see the return plumbing to the SeaSwirl, and the closed loop tower which no longer exists as I redo it.

Funny I didn't notice the cat until I uploaded the pic. Also I do not have the big canopy on so I can work on the tank, and I am seriously thinking of building a new one that is lower in profile.

jp

BigJPDC · #6 10/24/2006, 08:43 AM

why are my pictures so big? sorry about that.

old salty · #7 10/24/2006, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BigJPDC
why are my pictures so big? sorry about that.

Genetics??

keefsama2003 · #8 10/24/2006, 09:27 AM

during the cycle Do Not! do a water change wait for the cycle to finish before the first waterchange.

doing changes during the cycle is counter-productive

BigJPDC · #9 10/24/2006, 09:39 AM

lol Salty.

keef - I think that is what my dilemma is here, that I don't know for sure when I'll know about the cycle cycle. I am logging daily ammonia, trite and trates for spikes - is it normal for nothing to happen for a while and will the water be cloudy until then?

jp

keefsama2003 · #10 10/24/2006, 10:04 AM

water will be cloudy for a few if you can run like a filter sock or something that may help get the fine sediments out. but the cycle will read everything 0 then do the first change not before i would think a good cycle being about 2-3 weeks thats what i let mine run actually i had my 300 run 3 months to make sure it cycled fully before i did my first water change. best not to rush things like this.

BigJPDC · #11 10/24/2006, 10:09 AM

Wow. Three weeks doing nothing but looking at an empty tank. I'll go crazy but if that's what it takes then I am in.

keefsama2003 · #12 10/24/2006, 10:24 AM

MY 300 cycled for r3 weeks but was fishless for almost 6 months just running wanted to make sure it was as mature as i could get it then i started adding fish slowly. now i just need to add some macro to my fuge and im done.

BigJPDC · #13 10/24/2006, 11:45 AM

and also the closed loop that is giving me fits trying to figure out how to plumb the Mag9.5 I have .

keefsama2003 · #14 10/24/2006, 12:12 PM

you going to have it off the bottom or from the top if its from the top then its simple if from the bottom you may have to drill a hole in the overflow and have a hole drilled into the bottom if thats possible and plumb it that way with sand covering the pipe you should be able to hide it or if the side isnt tempered get a hole drilled low to the bottom. but i think there is water in it already so i would put that above and hang it from the top down. and plumb it that way.

BigJPDC · #15 10/24/2006, 12:20 PM

No, it's in there all right, under the sand and water. My problem now is trying to figure out how to plumb it, and how to fit the pump in or out of the stand. The good news is all of the weeks I have to work it out before I'll put fish and corals in it.

The black returns are almost invisible against the black sand mix I have.

keefsama2003 · #16 10/24/2006, 12:23 PM

i can see running black pvc up the opening near the overflow and running it over into the overflow and then placing the pump up high theres gonna be alot of head tho you may want to go with a bigger pressure rated pump something external and try it that way.

can you get a few more pics of what you have now

BigJPDC · #17 10/24/2006, 12:28 PM

keef - this is a closed loop, not the return, that's already done - my gallery has a pic of the way the plumbing was before I redid it.

When I changed the CL exit to the three 1/2"ers on the sand floor, the Mag wouldn't turn over, and I think it was because of the pipe size mismatch on the intake and return.

If I can find a place in the stand or build an extension or something, I would want to use vinyl hose instead of a hard plumb up the back of the tank.

keefsama2003 · #18 10/24/2006, 12:47 PM

you would be better off with the pool hose like for vaccumes the soft vinyl suck i had them on my 300 for a while and they are a pita. if you can try a bigger pump. i think thats where the resolution lies.

newreefbishop · #19 10/24/2006, 01:11 PM

Nice looking setup so far. I am impressed. In any case here is my opinion on things for what its worth.

First on the Live Rock, I would go ahead and put it in, you will start a cycle with the live sand, but once the rock comes in you will start another cycle. Either way the process will unfold the same. DO not add any shrimp unless you dont see any spikes. Depending on where you get the rock from and how cured it is will also affect your cycle, as far as how visible it is. For instance if your getting rock locally from an established tank you may see no cycle at all, if the rock was sitting in a box at the airport for a few days...there will be some die-off so you would see a cycle.

Do your first water change when you see a drop in nitrates..... at that point you can start adding livestock SLOWLY.....oh and DONT DO DAMSELS...they are the devil in small pretty bodies (kinda like women

)

Your skimmer wont pick up much untill you get a significant bioload in there...rocks fish, coral etc. But keep it running as chances are there is a break in period and this will put you ahead of the game.

Back to water changes....I would personally do a 10-15 Gallon water change 2 weeks after adding rocks, then another 10 gallon 3 weeks later.....and a 10 gallon change every 10-15 days depending on what you are shooting for. Me personally I do one water change every month, but I test every 3 days...to make sure levels are correct, which brings me to my next point get a a great test kit. and test frequently. As far as your water being cloudy it will clear in a few days....just relax....it took mine about 3-4 days before it was crystal clear.

One last thing chances are the spike wont be significant without Live Rock......just my two cents....personally I didnt have a spike at all.....

Ill be taggin along so feel free to ask me any questions, We have the same tank so it should be interesting...

BigJPDC · #20 10/24/2006, 06:27 PM

Solid advice nrb, solid, and thank you! I think the cloudiness I am seeing is because they pack that LS in seawater (obviously). I guess I expected the carbon to clear it up. It does seem weird to me that I have no mechanical filtration.

I think I solved my plumbing problem this evening while my wife was talking about something - I can use 90 degree hose barb connectors to get the hose running along the back glass and basically hang the intake and return pipes off and down into the Mag9.5. I'll mock this up this weekend while I am working on the LR towers I want to build.

jp

old salty · #21 10/24/2006, 09:04 PM

BigJPDC,

If you use a Mag9.5 or any flow rated pump for that closed loop, you are going to be quite disappointed at the results. Aside from having way too many elbows and T fittings (hydraulic speak for Brick Walls), the pump is also going to have to fight the water pressure that is going to be pushing into the piping. You would be lucky to get any flow out of the fitting at the front left corner (as you would view the tank, not the pic.) Water is going to take the path of least resistance, and will have a hard time taking the turn into the tubing if it's already flowing straight (does that make any sense??)

I would recommend a pressure rated pump, and switch the plumbing around in a way that the inlet to the closed loop is on the end of the T fitting that the front left corner is in (swap 'em).

I tried to copy and edit the photo that you posted, but the computer at work is a piece of RIO (reefspeak for garbage), and won't let me. If I have time when I get home, I will show you what I mean.

newreefbishop · #22 10/24/2006, 09:43 PM

Technically your right......technically.....but honestly it wont make a huge different......the PSI will be a little lower at that side, but remember he has a 65, and even if he is doing SPS.....with the head loss, he should be aiming for somewhere around 600 GPH which he will get.....

Personally the only change I would make is a smaller outlet at the shortest side.....that will even out the pressure.....If you take a look at my setup, click my house.....I persoanally have seen what difference the flow is in the corner farthest away from the intake.....

BigJPDC · #23 10/25/2006, 07:58 AM

Awesome feedback - thank you both of you.

I really don't think SPS is in my immediate future, maybe not even for years as I learn proper husbandry, so I am just looking for flow that will keep things clean and healthy and look cool too.

Changing the plumbing would be a nightmare, as I would have to dig it out, and then back in to the sand. If I could avoid that at all I would. I am hopeful that changing to hose from the tank to the pump in the stand both ways will help.

nrb - can you help me visualize what a 'smaller outlet at the shortest side' means? These are 1/2" fittings, so would I make one or two of them 3/4?.

The 800 pound gorilla remains the Mag pump. Can you recommend a pressure rated pump I could use instead if it doesn't work out? I bet I could repurpose that Mag9.5 with some spray bars for either my sw mixing vats or a tub to hold LR.

thanks again,
jp

BigJPDC · #24 10/25/2006, 08:04 AM

another things that is bugging me now is that I wonder if my problem with the Mag was priming related. The pump was making clicking noises, like it was dry, and the only thing happening in the tank was air bubbles coming out of the left corner outlet, the one that Salty mentions as having the least amount of flow.

I filled the priming tower on the intake until the water level wouldn't change when I added more, but I wonder if I have something built incorrectly - it is a straight Melev copy. This is another reason why I want to use clear hose, so I can see exactly what is happening.

jp

newreefbishop · #25 10/25/2006, 08:34 AM

The first thing I will address is the pump issue. Are you running a external, or in sump pump. If you are running external.....Gen-X PCX-30 850 gph Water Pump would be your best bet, and use ball joint or gates to control flow. It is only about 92 bucks and extremely quiet. Or http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...CID=C12188x007

The ehiem can be in sump or external. These will be quiet efficent and will take care of your head loss. Also rememeber that you only trully experience head loss when the piping is vertical, not horizontal. So basically once the piping flows down into the tank no more significant head loss.

As far as the fittings, after re-evaluating things, I dont think that there will be significant loss because once the water flows vertically, it will flow equally....just that once again once side will be slightly weaker......JUST SLIGHTLY......

Where are you on plumbing now, and where are you getting your live rock....I have a couple sources that have extremely high quality, for low cost.....