Non-reefers just don't get it, do they?

[kathainbowen]

Originally posted by Ladipyg
kathainbowen...I think the phase "It's MY CAR!" should have been the end of the argument....;0)

Sadly, it's technically not my car just yet. There's been a shuffle of cars between my mum, my dad and myself after my dad purchased a new car and I was given right of first refusal. See, between my brother's car and my car (my beloved '92 Nissan Sentra XE, aka the Brave Little Toaster), my car was in worse shape after years of utter abuse (*hey, we bought it in 1998 for $1250, so we set to get our money's worth out of it, never realizing it would have survived this long). So, the Toaster was sold for scrap a couple of weekends ago, and it's been in dispute whether I'm purchasing my father's old car or my mum's.

Think of it like small scale car-communism. Good in though, terrible in practice.




But, Johnny Bass has the band stuff with this group ZODIAC, and they're not bad. I absolutely loathe the lead singer, Nick (Click here to watch Nick set himself on fire! The fire performer safety tech in me hates that he doesn't practice safe fire work and insists on doing breathes), but I can't begrudge the other members nor audience when they have a gig tonight.

[awestruck]

Just curious, why would you expect non-reefers to 'get it' and why are they 'stupid' because they don't?

[GoingPostal]

I have to agree, I don't mind the people who don't have a clue but are interested, it's the people who have never done saltwater and think they know everything about it that get me. I set up a simple reef at my pet store because the previous owner had a horrid example and had left a clownfish. I set it up with easy coral that don't need to be fed, two clownfish, skimmer and fuge. All the owner has to do is top it off with freshwater and feed, I do water changes every two weeks or so.
Everytime I'm in there, someone walks in and says "Saltwater is so much work". Um...have you ever taken care of a saltwater tank? Then how do you know? I spend about a hour once a week doing water changes and that is pretty much it besides topoff and food. A well setup freshwater tank takes as much work. But this argument applies to everything, 70% of the people in that store have no clue how to take care of whatever living animal they just bought and they aren't going to do any research until something goes wrong a few times or dies.

[kathainbowen]

Ah, see, the problem with the "saltwater is so much work" thing is because of a long-standing series of myths regarding freshwater. Ever ask the people who insist "saltwater is so much work" about their water change schedule?

7-9 times out of 10, and you'll get something like rarely to never.

[aninjaatemyshoe]

I'd agree that a well setup saltwater aquarium could be just about as involved in maintenance as a typical freshwater setup. However, there is much more that one must learn to get into saltwater than what it takes to be successful in freshwater. This is what intimidates people.

The stories about people asking "is this saltwater" or offering a couple hundred bucks for an entire system do not bother me. The stories about people placing saltwater livestock into freshwater systems or other stupid crap that results in death of livestock are rather upsetting. What bothers me even more are the rinky-dink LFS stores that have a small saltwater section, obviously know very little about what they are keeping, stuff tangs in small 10 gallon systems (or even smaller!), and continue to do things this way despite obvious issues with livestock dying. I've probably seen this as the case more often than I've seen LFS stores that do it right.

[kathainbowen]

I'm not saying that saltwater is EASIER than freshwater, or that freshwater is harder than saltwater. I'm just saying that there's a large myth regarding the difficulty level of both. Many freshwater tanks can be difficult, and, in some cases, even more difficult to maintain than some saltwater tanks. Each tank and each setup is unique, so you can never really be absolutely certain which is going to be easier, since some keepers also find different areas of the aquatic pets hobby to be more intuitive than others.

[Musho3210]

oh boy my low tech freshwater planted tank is a PITA, my saltwater tank is much easier to take care of. The freshwater i have to measure the fertilizers and put them in, remember the cycle that i have to do it in, and then i have to scrape algae (since i dont use CO2, not using CO2 makes it even more annoying since CO2 is the cure for everything in planted tanks) and then i have to trim down my stem plants and stick them somewhere else, while stiring the sand every couple of times so anerobic spots wont be a problem. Then i need to change 50% of the water weekly.

Saltwater tank: Mix kalk, top off water (which i havent been doing lately but i want to raise my SG anyway), change 10-25% water changes weekly.

[Ladipyg]

I've had planted tanks and I agree with Musho...we love the tanks lush and green but doesn't it always seem like they stay that way for a week or 2 and then there are either overgrown or there's too much algae. We constantly have to clip and trim so every plant gets the right light.
I still had to do water changes on fresh water but I really love the color of Salt water fish. I know that FW fans would argue that they have colorful fish too, but I believe for me the corals are the final kicker...SPS, LPS, zoas, etc...I love the surprised look on someone's face when I say that everything in the tank is alive...

[ACBlinky]

Originally posted by awestruck
Just curious, why would you expect non-reefers to 'get it' and why are they 'stupid' because they don't?

Whey I say non-hobbyists don't 'get it', I'm not saying they're stupid! I mean things like this: they don't understand the expense or work that goes into the hobby and so say/do silly things (like think I'm selling my 90g reef for $40), they don't listen when someone explains what coral is and insist on calling it a plant even after it's been explained (that was someone else's example), or sometimes they just don't think when it comes to animals living in SW vs. FW, or they don't realize that taking live corals from native waters and bringing them home to add to a goldfish tank is a bad thing to do both morally and legally.

I never said people were stupid, nor would I, but ignorance abounds and sometimes it's baffling just how much people don't think before they act/speak. Keep in mind I did mention that I know I'm ignorant of things in other people's hobbies, but I think it's one thing for me to not grasp the intricacies of photographic equipment and techniques or know how to play a guitar, and another thing entirely for someone to be able to watch Finding Nemo ten times and still not realize that clownfish live in the ocean

[kathainbowen]

Lol. I'm sorry, I had this nice, serious reply in mind, but, when I hit the Finding Nemo comment at the end, I couldn't help but just laugh!

But, it is a the truth. We're not calling people stupid because they don't get it. We're just pointing out about how there's an obvious and sometimes utterly hilarious gap between reefers and the rest of the world. The same obvious gap exists between people of any diehard hobby and the rest of the world.



On the same token, there are other hobbies that I have which no one really "gets." Take fire spinning. My brother sees the principles, understands the mechanics and recognizes it as interesting, but doesn't see how or why it can be addicting. My dad doesn't get why I pay to go, train hard, do tough work, get dirty, and bust it out in the arena each week with show jumping schooling. However, altogether, we love comics, but mum doesn't get that. It's just a gap of interests.

[Michelle L]

Originally posted by awestruck
I find this to be true not only of reefing, but many hobbies. This may seem ignorant on my part (oh well), but my son showed me a picture of a car on the internet that sells for something like 1.5 million dollars. I'm not into cars; my thought was, 'Wow, how stupid to spend so much for a vehicle'. However, to someone who's into cars, well, this probably is the creme-de-le-creme of cars. I think it's quite easy to not understand how expensive some things are. However, the lfs employee should have known the value of 25 nicely grown out frags. THAT kind of stupidity is upsetting.

This is along the same vein of what I was thinking.

We can't honestly expect people to have the same level of knowledge as we do (or anything even close to it) when we hobbyists have done hours upon hours of research into reefing. A person can't call someone stupid just because they don't know anything about someone else's hobby. Hell, there are "hobbyists" right here on RC that don't know squat about reefing, or so it sometimes seems!

My Great Dane recently passed away, but up until then I used to frequent a Dane forum for people who owned this unique breed of dog. This same type of discussion would always come up...how stupid people are who don't own Danes because of the ignorant things people say to owners. "How much does it eat?" "Do you got a saddle for that thing?" "I have a Dane that's a brindle and I'm going to breed it to my neighbor's harlequin..." "Does it really live in the house???" "My friend used to have a Great Dane that weighed 275 pounds!!" "Can my kids have a ride on it?" I would always point out to the people complaining that if the people making comments don't own a Dane, then how can they be knowledgeable about their unique requirements?

I mean, I see what you are saying because I would think that just about everyone knows that oceans are saltwater, but in defense of some "non-nature" people, many people probably don't understand the physiological differences between saltwater and freshwater fish that would make it impossible for saltwater fish to live in fresh water. They probably think that the fish can live in any kind of water and don't understand that the fishes' bodies have evolved to process saltwater differently.

Anyway...for us to complain about non-hobbyists because they don't understand the cost involved, or because they just don't know about the requirements of the animals, is a little extreme. Anytime someone starts in about Finding Nemo or about their 55 gallon oscar tank at home, I just nod and smile and go about my business.

[PrivateJoker64]

I'll say it.
People are stupid (generally).
There are exceptions, of course, but that's the way to bet.
Life is too easy now, as opposed to 200 years ago. The stupid people who used to die young (disease, accident, animal attacks, etc.) now live to adulthood and breed more stupid children.
Also, I've noticed that my intelligent friends usually stop after one, sometimes two children. The stupid ones keep having more and more.
We have become outnumbered by cretins.

[aninjaatemyshoe]

"Anytime someone starts in about Finding Nemo or about their 55 gallon oscar tank at home, I just nod and smile and go about my business."

Stupidity is doing something wrong when you should know better, or in other words a careless lack of wisdom. Ignorance is simply not knowing, which is often forgivable because nobody can know everything, especially when it comes to as involved a hobby as ours. This is a prime example of stupidity. People that place a clownfish in their oscar tanks should know to take the time to learn about the care requirements of their pets (they probably should not have the oscar in the first place if they are this stupid). Problem is that this kind of stupidity has led to many of the issues that plague our hobby. Much of the demand for saltwater fish is from people who are totally ignorant of their proper care, which is stupid. There are plenty of needless deaths because of this.

In regards to freshwater vs. saltwater difficulty, believe me I know that a planted freshwater tank is just about the most difficult tank to deal with. But I'm not comparing planted tanks with saltwater as this is not what most people who are new to aquarium keeping would be comparing. If you look at what it takes to have a successful beginner tank in freshwater and saltwater, there is no denying that saltwater is more involved. IMO if someone is intimidated by the amount of work and research it takes to run a saltwater aquarium, they should not be delving into it in the first place.

[LobsterOfJustice]

Originally posted by PrivateJoker64
I'll say it.
People are stupid (generally).
There are exceptions, of course, but that's the way to bet.
Life is too easy now, as opposed to 200 years ago. The stupid people who used to die young (disease, accident, animal attacks, etc.) now live to adulthood and breed more stupid children.
Also, I've noticed that my intelligent friends usually stop after one, sometimes two children. The stupid ones keep having more and more.
We have become outnumbered by cretins.

I agree with this as much as is humanly possible.

[Reefski's]

my mentor in the reef hobby told me her mentor made her have a fresh water tank for a year before she would teach her about a reef tank.

if everyone was educated BEFORE they started in the hobby most of the LFS would be out of business. what percentage of the fish they sell go on to grow up a lead a normal healthy lifespan. a very low percentage i bet.

i was given much bad advice by the LFS that sold me a carpet anemone and a bleached Sebae anemone when i first started. along with other bad advice. i had a 120 gallon with PC lighting. they died.

this from people who are supposed to be the experts to educate us, not just make a quick buck.

i have not gone back there and have bad mouthed them ever since.

ignorance is NOT bliss.


Carl

[awestruck]

This November it will be 2 years since I had brain surgery. The first neurosurgeon I spoke with told me I needed to see someone better than her thus she sent me to consult with a doctor in Madison. The physician she sent me to is the chair of the Department of Neurosurgery at the University of Wisconsin Madison. Dr. Dempsey and I spoke at length regarding what needed to be done to 'fix' the 2 aneuryisms I had. During one of our conversations I asked him two different questions and to one of them he said, 'I don't know'. At a different time I asked him how many years of schooling it took to be where he is---his response---17 YEARS. Now, this is a man who is well respected throughout the US for his medical skill and knowledge yet did not hesitate to answer with 'I don't know'. He also is one of the most humble people I have ever met. I am in no way criticizing the responses in this thread; I guess I'm simply curious why we should criticize or kinda make fun of people who don't understand reefing, even after something is explained to them. If we go along with this thinking, then I would guess that all people who attend school, K-12 in addition to college, should graduate with a 4.0. Afterall, it was explained to you, was it not?

[Musho3210]

we have fun, thats why we do it