Is CopperSafe effective?

[BigShot]

I bought 3 fish and put them in quarantine. The fish have tiny white dots (smaller than salt) and the skin is a bit slimy/peeling off.
I have added QuICK Cure by Aquarium Products (formaline + m.g.) for 2 days in a row (to eliminate possiblilty of Brooklynella). Then I took water to 15 ppm of salinity, but the dots on fish have actually gotten worse. I have then added (without raising salinity) Coppersafe + Maracyn Two as I suspected Amyloodinium (velvet). It's been 2 days, but the dots on the fish did not disappear. Is Coppersafe effective at all ?
Is it more stable in water than Cupramine or ionic copper ?
Can it be removed with carbon ?
I also added some AmQuel as I suspected that bio filter might become weakened, I hope the AmQuel will not reduce copper and MaracynTwo to any inactive levels or compounds?

BTW, the reason why I haven't used Cupramine is because with Cupramine I lost 2 dwarf angels and 2 clowns before....so I thought that Coppersafe might me safer :-)

Thank you.
Luke

[SAT]

The key with any copper treatment is to continuously maintain the effective dosage, which means carefully monitoring the levels with a copper test kit and keeping it within the range recommended on the label. The safe & effective dosage varies according to the form (with Copper sulphate, for instance, you want it about 0.15ppm; with Cupramine you want a much higher dose). Note that an overdose can be as bad as the disease you're trying to cure.

To my knowledge, Cupramine is the safest form of copper. I would expect all commerical forms of copper, including Coppersafe, to be equally effective at killing the parasites when used as directed. The main difference is toxicity to the fish.

Carbon is effective at removing some complexed forms of copper (such as Cupramine and probably Coppersafe) and somewhat less effective with ordinary ionic copper. Some resins or a polyfilter are likely to be more effective than carbon. Note that carbonate materials such as coral skeletons and aragonite sand will absorb copper from the water and slowly release it back again... so we recommend removing all such materials from a treatment tank.

Note that copper takes several days, up to a week, to do any good because it works by preventing reinfection, not by killing the parasites on the fish. Basically you have to wait for the parasites to fall off on their own schedule. It's fairly typical for new spots to show up for a day or two after the start of treatment as previously attached parasites get established. If the fish is heavily infected at the beginning of treatment, it may already be too late for them. Maintain the treatment for a full 3 weeks to kill all the parasites in the tank. Also, if you return the fish to an infected display tank in less than 4-6 weeks, the fish are likely to be reinfected.

The effect of various forms of AmQuel and other ammonia / chlorine detox solutions on copper is unclear to me. I believe if you use a chelated or complexed form of copper (including Cupramine) and avoid the fancier forms of detox (the + versions) you're less likely to have an interaction, but no guarantees. Avoid anything that claims to detoxify heavy metals. I doubt AmQuel will affect the antibiotics.

We don't recommend mixing copper and hyposalinity because copper is substantially more toxic in freshwater than saltwater. Whether it's just the pH that matters or the salinity is unclear to me. At a minimum, I suggest keeping the pH in the 8+ range. In any case, it shouldn't be necessary to use both... either one will do for Ich.

[BigShot]

Thanks Stuart

[fishetcinc]

I prefer CopperSafe over Cupramine.

Cupramine is less toxic to fish, but that also means that it is less toxic to the parasites you are trying to kill. Stubborn ich cases (such as in Puffers and Tangs) take longer to cure under Cupramine (4-6 weeks) than under CopperSafe (2-3 weeks).

I have also found that Cupramine is unstable over time and copper concetrations fall rapidly requiring you to add additional dosages every few days which can lead to accidental overdosing.

CopperSafe is much more stable and only one dose will maintain therapeutic concentrations for atleast 1 month.

Additionally, I found through experimentation that Cupramine will react with ammonia removers leading to copper precipitation and with UV ligths to produce cyanide. CopperSafe, however, does not react at all with either ammonia removers or UV lights.

[SAT]

fishetcinc,

That's new information for me. Any additional elaboration you can provide might be helpful.

Here's a reference we've been using for Cupramine: http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...cupramine.html

[fishetcinc]

SAT,

Although the molecular structure of Cupramine is a trade secret, we can safely assume (due to its name CuprAMINE) that it is something like:

R-NH2:- Cu2+

where R is some proprietary carbon complex and Cu is kept ionically bonded to the carbon complex via the attached ionically charged amine :NH2 group

So,

1. Cupramine and UV

UV lights' only effect is cleavage of organic double bonds (like those in DNA, that's why its so effective against microorganisms - its destroys the parasites' DNA and effectively kills it)

Due the nature of amines, the attached R group on cupramine likely contains C=C or C=O double bonds (which must exists in any organo-amine structure to stabilize the extra electron pair in NH2: ) When these double bonds are broken via UV, cyanide (CN) may be formed.

R=R-NH2: ------(UV light)----> RH + RCN + H+

2. Cupramine and Ammonia Detoxs

Most ammonia detoxifiers work as follows:

NH3 + HOCH2SO3 ------> H2NCH2SO3- + H20

So, in the case of Cupramine, we can assume:

R-NH2:Cu2+ + HOCH2SO3 ------> H2NCH2SO3- + H20 + RH+ Cu Solid

where detox solution steals the amine away from cupramine freeing up unstable copper ions which will quickly stabilize in aqueous solution into elemental copper which precipitates out of solution as a solid.

None of this occurs with CopperSafe because it is chealated. Think of a chealate as a web of carbon chains tightly wrapped around a copper ion. The copper is kept isolated but its therapeutic effects can still be felt through the web. Cheleates do not have exposed double bonds (therefore unreactive to UV) nor ionic amines (therefore unreactive to amonia detox) so the copper is never released and no other adverse chemical reactions occur.

3. Cupramine and toxicity

Cupramine is least toxic to fish because its stays in aqueous solution longest due to the fact that the copper is continously kept ionic (and therefore aquaeous) by the presence of the conjugate amine ions. By keeping the copper ionic, it less likely to cause copper hyper-toxicity (a build-up of free copper within cellular membranes which rob cells of free intercellular oxygen) in your fish and biological filter. But it also applies to the pathogens you are trying to kill as well. It still kills the pathogens since they are more sensitive to lower concentrations of copper buildup than the fish. But, in my experience, a chealated copper has a higher efficacy rate and none of the problems above.

[SAT]

fishetcinc,

Thanks for the explanation!

[BigShot]

fishetcinc, great info, thanks...
Few things to followup... how is cyanide produce from copper and ammonia removers?
Would AmQuel also count???
Since Coppersafe is more stable, I thought that it would be hard to remove through carbon as someone stated otherwise.
Weird, on the Cupramine description it says that it's more effective than chelated copper.
Can you also comment on why one should not combine hyposalinity and copper for stubborn ich infestations ?

Thank you,
Luke

[fishetcinc]

UV lights, NOT ammonia removers, may produce cyanide from cupramine. Ammonia removers will simply precipitate the copper out of solution and make it fall to the bottom of the tank making the treatment ineffective.

CopperSafe is definatly harder to take out from your water than Cupramine. You generally need to run carbon first and then run a copper sponge (like Cuprisorb). Carbon alone is not enough.

I use hypo (1.016 sp. gr.) and copper at the same time. I just make sure my pH never drops below 8.3 (via alkalinity buffers) which is hard to do during hypo so I dont recommend this method for novices. Basically, copper becomes exponentialy more toxic the lower the pH, and the pH goes lower the lower your salinity.

[BigShot]

fishetcic, thanks. Does Coppersafe also precipitate into live rock and Ca material ?
Luke

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, this thread has a discussion between myself, HAbib Sekha (owner of Salifert) and GregoryMorin (owner of Seachem) about the nature of Cupramine and issues around the use of the Salifert kit to detect the cupramine:

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...43#post1047243

also here:

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=154593

Due the nature of amines, the attached R group on cupramine likely contains C=C or C=O double bonds (which must exists in any organo-amine structure to stabilize the extra electron pair in NH2:

Stablilize it? There are many stable amines that contain no C=O or C=C. We can stat with something as simple as methylamine, CH3NH2. I did not get any information in the above thread about the nature of the amine except that it is bidentate (has two chemical hands that grab the copper).

So, in the case of Cupramine, we can assume:

R-NH2:Cu2+ + HOCH2SO3- ------> H2NCH2SO3- + H20 + RH+ Cu Solid

where detox solution steals the amine away from cupramine freeing up unstable copper ions which will quickly stabilize in aqueous solution into elemental copper which precipitates out of solution as a solid.

That equation is not balanced, having more positive charges on the left than the right. The amine may react with the aminomethanesulfonate, but I do not think that is how, and I do not see how Cu could be a product. I think Cu++ could be a product.

If it reacts, the most likely product, IMO, is:


R-NH2:Cu2+ -------> R-NH2 + Cu++

R-NH2 + HOCH2SO3- ------> RNHCH2SO3- + H20

[BigShot]

Randy, could you please put it into simple terms for me ? :-) I.e. answer my questions :-)

Thank you,
Luke

[fishetcinc]

Randy,

Unlike you chemists, we biochemists like to skip steps in our nomenclature

Seriously though, there are so many possible reactions that may, can, and do occur in our aquaria, I am simply illustrating two possible pathways of synthesis in ridiculously simple terms which relate to BigShot's original question so as not to alienate all but the hardcore chemists.

For example, you are right about the end product being likely Cu++ from dosage of ammonia detox but it is unlikely that Cu++, with its counter ion now unavailable, would stay in this form in a saltwater medium and not be reduced to Cu or atleast be bound to something else in the water rendering it ineffective.


BigShot,

The copper in Coppersafe will be absorbed into your substrate as would any other copper medication.

[BigShot]

So the summary is:
1) CopperSafe more effective and more stable than Cupramine.
2) Coppersafe will not get converted to other crap.
3) AmQuel is ok to use with CopperSafe.
4) It's easier to remove with carbon.

Surprisingly this contradicts everything that is stated on Cupramine label :-)

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

For example, you are right about the end product being likely Cu++ from dosage of ammonia detox but it is unlikely that Cu++, with its counter ion now unavailable, would stay in this form in a saltwater medium and not be reduced to Cu or atleast be bound to something else in the water rendering it ineffective.

I disagree. I do not believe that Cu++ ever becomes Cu (copper metal) in an aquarium.


Randy, could you please put it into simple terms for me ? :-) I.e. answer my questions :-)

I didn't answer them directly as I do not have any particularly useful insight into them.

I do not have an opinion as to what forms of copper are best. All forms can be removed to some extent by carbon. I do not know whether Amquel interacts with any of the forms of copper that you are referring to.

Did I miss any other questions that I likely do not have the answers to?