Harlequin Shrimp, are they ethical????

[GraviT]

Originally posted by amcarrig
Right!! And less in the paint for you to chew off the windowsill to boot!

I can't believe you posted that picture....I told you that I look awful without my coffee in the morning!

Sorry, for some reason, I couldn't find the one I was really looking for! I promise I won't do it again..hehe And why stop drinking coffee in the morning? I'm still sipping on mine..I even have a coffee pot on my desk!

[amcarrig]

Originally posted by GraviT
Sorry, for some reason, I couldn't find the one I was really looking for! I promise I won't do it again..hehe And why stop drinking coffee in the morning? I'm still sipping on mine..I even have a coffee pot on my desk!

I have a much better tan in that picture if I'm not mistaken

[GraviT]

Ahh, the things that ethical treatment of starfish make you talk about!

[amcarrig]

Originally posted by GraviT
Ahh, the things that ethical treatment of starfish make you talk about!

You said it!

[revrenhex]

If cow and pig farts are destroying our ozone layer, why hasnt the ozone been destroyed thousands of years ago, I mean, those animals have been around forever. That being said, im headed to Grandy's for some bacon and sausage.

I <3 MEAT

[GettingFiesty]

Yet the "hole" in the ozone is getting starting to heal itself. I don't get it.

[thrlride]

Originally posted by GettingFiesty
Yet the "hole" in the ozone is getting starting to heal itself. I don't get it.

The pigs and cows have decency now, they don't fart as much.

Or are they closet farters?

[RicksReefs]

well, i have been cutting down on my greens and farting less...

[thrlride]

It was you all along Rick?

[RicksReefs]

ya, but it was a good thing until i lost my natural gas contract.

damn homeland security...

[thrlride]

I can understand pulling the contract from you, those devious plans you had!

[GettingFiesty]

you guys are up and feisty way too early in the morning.

[RicksReefs]

yup, my plans to market my free sustainable energy was shut down, some mumbo jumbo about crashing the economy...

[Gawain1974]

Well, I take a couple of days off from the net to do some research, and look what I missed.

Sihaya, I know you probably think we're all just a bunch of mean people who are bashing you to clear our own consciences. You make some good points, I'll grant you that. No one is disagreeing that we don't need to clean up the environment. It's your delivery that comes across rather strong. It's up to each of us to choose what we can change in our daily lives to make an impact.

You know, Rick cutting out the greens from his diet has probably done more for the ozone than anything else!

[sihaya]

Well, I AM a law student... I'm trained to give strong deliveries.

However, I still never personally insulted anyone or claimed out-right moral superiority (short of believing in where I stand... but doesn't everyone? Isn't that why we do the things we do? If I thought I was wrong I wouldn't be a vegetarian... do see what I'm saying?)

[IanInDC]

Guys, I've watched this thread unfold for a while now and haven't said anything....

You guys flamed -- FLAMED -- two dudes in a row for making serious points. The first flame was kind of deserved, because as well intentioned as his comments on the harlequins were, he was about as eloquent as a third grader in supporting his position. What he might have said (and I believe this was mentioned, once, somewhere along the way), is that we are one giant interconnected ecosystem and by removing the harlequins from their natural environment, we run the RISK of having their natural prey overrun the reef. In this case, it has been reported that crown of thorns are starting to increase their numbers where harlequins are harvested.

With the second post, however, you guys jumped all over sihaya even though he NEVER once insulted or judged any of you... and in fact he has science on his side. All of those ugly pictures you have of "citrus" farms? That's what meat-producing factory farms do, only multiply it by ten. Because to produce one pound of meat you need literally ten times its weight in grains, which comes from regular ole grain farms. Then, if it's red meat, our bodies can only catalyze 10% of the protein, so we end up overconsuming.

And to answer your questions about why the environmental problems with pigs and cattle weren;t aren't around before even the animals were around for "thousands" of years, it's simple. Until the past century, human beings have not mass-produced and concentrated wildly overblown populations of meat-producing mammals for human consumption. Before the emergence of America as a major consumer, common people ate meat once, maybe twice a week. Now we think it's our birthright, and we tried the autonomy of our dinner plates more sacredly than the privacy of a woman's uterus. And the ozone isn't what the methane gas produced by bovine farts is hurting. The methane traps the sun's heat WITHIN the atmosphere and warms the planet. That's why bogs in Siberia are melting and the ice caps are becoming liquid at warp speed.

Just as a point of reference, I *do* eat meat, though rarely fish and never red meat, both for ethical reasons. So, unless I'm some kind of self-hating omnivore, I don't think meat should be banned. But there's little if any argument against sihaya's position in the ecological and biological communities. And this makes no mention of the staggering impact our grain consumption (which is not direct but comes through feeding livestock and distilling liquor) has on prices and supply levels throughout the world, something most economists agree keeps most of the third world hungry.

AND this is the responsible reefkeeping forum. Yet, the defeatists among us, rather than respond with questions or positions of their own, insulted him and claimed "we all produce waste" as though bad behavior becomes acceptable if everyone's doing it. If one can't challenge the status quo here in this forum, then where?

I hope I haven't offended anyone. But frankly, we've all lowered the bar for discussion of a very important topic here. How sad.

[sihaya]

Thanks so much Ian, for the support and some confirmation of the facts! And I think your efforts to avoid red meat and seafood are admirable. I don't think people have to give up meat all together... even a 50% reduction would be significant I think.

I've never been able to bring up this topic (in real life or on the internet) without stirring some strong emotions. Though, honestly, I was surprised by the suggestion that I end my own life... I've never been hit with that one before.

But it's no matter... I sleep better at night knowing I at least tried. And I'd rather people have strong reactions than no reaction. At least that means they care...

Oh, minor point... I'm a she.

[IanInDC]

Sorry, Sihaya-

Now I just look *stupid.*

[sihaya]

Originally posted by IanInDC
Sorry, Sihaya-

Now I just look *stupid.*

Haha... no... it happens all the time. And you played your odds well... I think at least 9/10 people on here are guys.

[Jamesurq]

Originally posted by IanInDC
Now I just look *stupid.*

Originally posted by IanInDC
we tried the autonomy of our dinner plates more sacredly than the privacy of a woman's uterus.

Agreed....

[GettingFiesty]

I just attended a presentation on Saturday and I was under the impression that the Harlequins cannot reduce the Crown of Thorns starfish because they are simply not big enough. Not saying that by removing them isn't hurting that environment, but more that the Crown of Thorns issue is not exasterbated by it.

BTW--Also female.

[thrlride]

I watched a special on TV the other week saying the crown of thorns are actually in the mass numbers they are because of fertilizer and runoff from vegetation. The nutrients are making them grow faster than the natural predators can handle.

Nothing was said about it being due to the meat industry.

[amcarrig]

Originally posted by thrlride
I watched a special on TV the other week saying the crown of thorns are actually in the mass numbers they are because of fertilizer and runoff from vegetation. The nutrients are making them grow faster than the natural predators can handle.

Nothing was said about it being due to the meat industry.

I also believe that those same nutrients are causing larger than normal phytoplankton blooms. Because the starfish larvae feeds on this phytoplankton, the survivability rate of the larvae is higher than normal resulting in a population explosion.

[thrlride]

Yup, that's basically what they said as well.

[pisomojado]

Sorry, I cant let this one go, as my inlaws have a 6000 head cattle ranch that I visit on occasion.

Originally posted by IanInDC
With the second post, however, you guys jumped all over sihaya even though he NEVER once insulted or judged any of you... and in fact he has science on his side. All of those ugly pictures you have of "citrus" farms? That's what meat-producing factory farms do, only multiply it by ten. Because to produce one pound of meat you need literally ten times its weight in grains, which comes from regular ole grain farms. Then, if it's red meat, our bodies can only catalyze 10% of the protein, so we end up overconsuming. [/B]

Cows eat hay,grass,and a small amount of enriched vitamin supplement. All of this is grown on the farm itself, without fertilizer,except the maybe 3lbs of supplement.

Secondly, to produce one lb of meat im going to guess you need something on the order of 500lbs + of grass, as a 600-700 lb cow (ready to be sold) eats about 75lbs of grass/hay a day. However the sun is providing all this energy, not fertilizer.

third, and I may be wrong since its been a while out of school: your body can process ~80grams of protien at once. A perfectly reasonable 5oz of meat (RDA amount)
is going to be hitting right around that mark.

That 10% was stated simply to make meat eating look bad. One could argue all that useless fiber and stalk and shaft of a wheat plant, the seed is only ... 10%, with the same logic!
I don't care if people eat meat or don't, but don't try to make yourselves sound superior to anyone else.