would you do this to a new pump? - Page 4

smjtkj · #76 05/05/2006, 02:18 PM

Hey guys, i just wanted you to know that the reeflo snapper is availabe at custom aquatics. I spoke to sequence and the snapper uses the exact motor and wet end as the dart. The only difference is the impeller size. That is what changes the wattage and the GPH. Also they mentioned that they make the little giant
OPWG-20 and that is exactly the same pump as the snapper for a few dollars less than the reeflow. I bought one about 2 weeks ago and got it for 180.00 or so shipped.

hsvtoolfool · #77 05/05/2006, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by smjtkj
Hey guys, i just wanted you to know that the reeflo snapper is availabe at custom aquatics.

Yeah, I've found several places which have the Snapper for sale,
but none give detailed info like maximum head, power curves, etc.
I'll be glad when (or if) MDM lists it on their web site.

Thanks for passing on the info from MDM. I feel better about
buying the Snapper knowing its essentially a tried-n-true Dart.

hsvtoolfool · #78 05/07/2006, 12:25 AM

Okay, the following excercise may have been done before, and
it may be completely silly, but I've been thinking more about the
new Sequence Reeflo Snapper pump as a DIY needle-wheel...

kWH = kilowatt-hour
GPH = gallons per hour
CFH = cubic feet per hour
1 year = 8760 hours
Assume $0.075 (7.5 cents) per kWH

Red Dragon Bubble-King (PW7? + NW impeller)
Price: $780 (from R.E. web site)
Power: 42W = 0.042 kW
water: 790 GPH (air: 254 GPH = 32.6 CFH)
0.042 kW x 8760 Hr/yr = 368 kWH per year
368 kWH x $0.075 = $28 per year

Sequence Reeflo Snapper (DIY NW impeller)
Price: $190
Power: 98W = 0.098 kW
water: ??? GPH (air: ??? GPH = ??? CFH)
0.098 kW x 8760 Hr/yr = 858 kWH per year
858 kWH x $0.075 = $65 per year

Price difference = $780 - $190 = $590
Power bill difference = $65 - $28 = $37 per year

Time to recover initial Red Dragon investment when
compared to Sequence Snapper...
$590 / $37 per year ~= 16 YEARS!

Sequence Dart
Price: $200
Power: 160W = 0.16 kW
water: ??? GPH (air: ??? GPH = ??? CFH)
0.16 kW x 8760 Hr/yr = 1402 kWH per year
1402 kWH x $0.075 = $105 per year

Price difference = $780 - $200 = $580
Power bill difference = $105 - $28 = $77 per year

Time to recover initial Red Dragon investment when
compared to Sequence Dart...
$580 / $77 per year ~= 7.5 YEARS!

Comments

The least expensive and smallest power draw Red Dragon
needle-wheel pump was chosen for this cost analysis. There
was no model number give on the R.E. web site, so I guessed
that it was a Power-Wave7 with a NW impeller.

The Sequence Snapper and Dart water/air output is an unknown
because the DIY needle-wheel and air intake design determines
that variable. Regardless, I think it's a fair assumption that a
decent DIY needle-wheel impeller for the Snapper/Dart can equal
or exceed the Red Dragon's water/air output.

Assuming power costs are doubled to 15 cents per kWH, the time
to recover the initial investment in a Red Dragaon pump is still
about 8 years when compared to the Snapper and almost 4 years
when compared to the Dart.

Since the Snapper comparisons approaches or exceeds most
aquarium pump's lifespan, the Red Dragon can't be justified even
when utility costs are doubled. Of course, this assumes the
advertised power use of 98W is accurate when the Snapper is
used as a NW. We won't know until we get one and put a meter
on it.

Using the Dart comparison, if power costs are doubled and the
Red Dragon runs without failure or repair (which is likely), then
you begin saving money over the Dart after 3.75 years. At 4.75
years, you have saved about $150 in power. At 5.75 years, you
have saved about $300 and so forth. To save enough in power
bills to buy another RD, you must get at least 7.5 years use from
your first RD (without repair). I suspect this is feasible given the
quality of the RD pumps.

spazz · #79 05/07/2006, 12:25 PM

hsvtoolfool, that is some great information!
but those numbers are based on the 160w dart pump. and the 98w snapper. when ever you inject air into a pump the wattage draw goes way down. i got my dart down to 95 watts with an air pump hooked up to it. i feel the dart pump will be rated for about 100 scfh at 130w sucking air on its own, and 175 scfh at 95 watts with an air pump hooked to it. if you figure in the wattage of the air pump with the dart pump, it would increase it to around 175-200 watts.
i cant wait to see what the wattage draw of the tiny might runs at. at 90 watts as a standard water pump it should run about 45-60 watts as a needle wheel pump. and im hoping for 60 -100 scfh running with out an air pump on it. once i can get the skimmer body done enough to put water in it, i will post some number on it.
if anyone else has information like hsvtoolfool has please post it. its great information for designing things like this. i can change the pins to increase the air intake or decrease the pins to lower the wattage draw. it all depends on what size the skimmer body will be.

Stile2 · #80 05/07/2006, 12:37 PM

Spazz,

I have a question. What about the ocean runner pumps makes them so much better than the sedras? Is it the motor or needle wheel impeller design or maybe the venturi used?

I ask because if it is the impeller design, and I know it would take 4th axis machining, could you make an impeller like the Oceanrunner?

I am thinking about taking the impeller out of my Oceanrunner 2700 and fitting it into my sedra 9000, just to see what happens. If it increases preformance substantially then maybe it would be a good design to look at for the tiny might or dart.

Just a thought.
Keith

spazz · #81 05/07/2006, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stile2
Spazz,

I have a question. What about the ocean runner pumps makes them so much better than the sedras? Is it the motor or needle wheel impeller design or maybe the venturi used?

I ask because if it is the impeller design, and I know it would take 4th axis machining, could you make an impeller like the Oceanrunner?

I am thinking about taking the impeller out of my Oceanrunner 2700 and fitting it into my sedra 9000, just to see what happens. If it increases preformance substantially then maybe it would be a good design to look at for the tiny might or dart.

Just a thought.
Keith

i feel its the motor and not the needle wheel itself. the sedra needle wheel it about the same as the eheim needle wheel but it wont draw the same amount of air as the eheim needle wheel does. i think its the same way for the ocean runners.

hsvtoolfool · #82 05/07/2006, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by spazz
hsvtoolfool, that is some great information!

Well, I'm fairly confident my calcs are correct, but please don't
take this as gospel. I'm a computer engineer, so cost analysis is
not my area of expertise. I'm sure someone will eventually point
out all the errors or bad assumptions I made.

I just wondered how expensive electricity needs to be before
buying an expensive but low-power pump is justified. If the
low-cost pump is below 100W, then it doesn't matter that the
expensive pump uses half the power. But if the low-cost pump
is 150W and above, then your local electricity rates determine
if the expensive pump is worth the cost.

Quote:

but those numbers are based on the 160w dart pump. and the 98w snapper. when ever you inject air into a pump the wattage draw goes way down.

True, but I can't say how much. It will vary with each DIYer's
needle-wheel and air input. Since the Snapper and Dart are the
same pump with different impellers, and looking at the Dart
power/flow graph, the 95W minimum you got is likely the lowest
power use we can get from either the Snapper or Dart.

Quote:

i cant wait to see what the wattage draw of the tiny might runs at.

That, and I hope it runs cool. And doesn't leak. And the maker
doesn't discontinue it within the near future. And...

I'm a worry wart.

Quote:

i can change the pins to increase the air intake or decrease the pins to lower the wattage draw.

I agree. Without forced air and with fewer pins on the impellor,
the Dart may be "crippled" enough for a 10-inch skimmer. Or like
Bill Wann, the Dart can be hopped up enough to drive a huuuge
NW skimmer.

spazz · #83 05/14/2006, 12:39 AM

well i dont have any updates on the tiny might pump yet. but im hoping to get a little time to work on it this week. i was down visiting bill and fred and took some pics. this is fred. he is one of the friendliest fish you will ever meet. he allways comes tothe top of the tank to say hi to me when im ove there, and he dont mind being touched either. he is trully an awesome fish.

Ti · #84 05/14/2006, 02:04 AM

I'd do it.

Stile2 · #85 05/14/2006, 10:20 AM

How's Bill's skimmer working out?

spazz · #86 05/14/2006, 10:53 AM

spazz · #87 05/14/2006, 11:03 AM

I was not going to post pics of the skimmer because every time I look at the pics I remember how bad the skimmate smelled when he dumped it. I have a super strong stomach from working on a farm for 4 years. nothing turns my guts. his skimmate almost made me loose my dinner. it smells just like sewage. I have never seen black skimmate in a skimmer before. its the nastiest thing you would ever want to smell. the cup has to be emptied every day now. its pumping that crap out by the bucket load.

this is bills new calcium reactor. I roughly calculate it will hold about 60-80 lbs of Gen x media in it. its the biggest reactor I have ever seen! I love bills ideas and philosophy. go big or go home!

smjtkj · #88 05/14/2006, 11:23 AM

Scott,
Man that is awesome! Come on Tiny Might! I have the parts for my skimmer all pieced together. I built the body just like Bills' and yours. Now I wonder if I should put a flange on the bottom box to be able to clean it. Is that a sediment of crud on the bottom of the skimmer? How is he going to get that out? I guess he could blow it out with a pump. Any more progress on the skimmer body you are working on?
Mike

humboldt reefer · #89 05/14/2006, 11:26 AM

Showoff...

The skimmer looks like its doing real well. Got any close up pics of the top of the reactor?

spazz · #90 05/14/2006, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by humboldt reefer
Showoff...

come again! i was asked for updates on bills skimmer and thats what i gave. an update. im not showing off. i may be showing up, but not off. and its not me doing it either its bills skimmer not mine.

sorry thats the only pic of the reactor.

hsvtoolfool · #91 05/14/2006, 11:32 AM

Quote:

the cup has to be emptied every day now. its pumping that crap out by the bucket load.

Any plans to plumb the output into a sewer system and add an
auto-wash? The investment is undeniably justified to avoid
smelling just one bucket-full. Nassssty!

tinygiants · #92 05/14/2006, 11:35 AM

I love this stuff. I am anxious about the tiny might outcome. I am seriously considering its use on my skimmer.

Keep us posted.

Any chance of getting the numbers from the dart needle wheel performance? I would love to crunch the performance numbers in my excel sheet.

Dale

exmt · #93 05/14/2006, 11:38 AM

Oh geez! Dark black skimmate by the gallon! How does Bill dispose of such vile liquid? Down the drain(which I would assume clog fast

)

Stile2 · #94 05/14/2006, 11:53 AM

Thanks for the pics Spazz.

I am surprised how fast the body has gotten crudded up. Is that normal?

Man, he must feed a lot to get that much crud out of the system. How many fish does he have?

Thanks again,
Keith

humboldt reefer · #95 05/14/2006, 12:06 PM

I know. JK around. Did you make that reactor or did Bill? I'm just curious how you did the top It looks its built like a schuran reactor. I asked in a pevious thread a while back about building there "gas seperator" but never found many good pics.

smjtkj · #96 05/14/2006, 12:16 PM

Man, no answers to questions in posts, pms or emails...

spazz · #97 05/14/2006, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by smjtkj
Man, no answers to questions in posts, pms or emails...

dude dont get your panties in a bunch.

the tiny might is on hold for the moment. i want to do it right the first time and im waiting on tubing. i also have a job to do and cant play in the shop every day. give it time and i will have an awesome skimmer to show you. im hoping to get some time on it this week but no promisses.

dgasmd · #98 05/14/2006, 01:18 PM

I am glad to find this thread. I had no idea it had been going for days now. I will be following the progress here on this one. Awesome work Scott. Sorry the impeller gave you such a hard time, but think of it as honing your skills LOL........................

spazz · #99 05/14/2006, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by exmt
Oh geez! Dark black skimmate by the gallon! How does Bill dispose of such vile liquid? Down the drain(which I would assume clog fast)

he dumps it on the trees out in the yard. his nabeors must hate the smell of rotten sewage all the time. ha ha ha ha ha ha

spazz · #**100** 05/14/2006, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by humboldt reefer
I know. JK around. Did you make that reactor or did Bill? I'm just curious how you did the top It looks its built like a schuran reactor. I asked in a pevious thread a while back about building there "gas seperator" but never found many good pics.

that reactor makes a schuran reactor look like a toy. but it is designed alot like a schuran reactor. there are some features on it that a schuran dont have. sorry i dont have any other pics of it.