Large Tank IN a Basement-Ventilation Suggestoin Please oh brethern of the mamoth tank

skippyreef · #1 07/31/2005, 02:11 PM

SO the title says it all!!

The main tank is 72*36*24 and has a total volume of 270 us gallons. The sump will likely be 125 gallon tank and I have a 40 gallon custom frag tank as well.

I am looking at around 435 gallons of water plus a resovoir for topping off the tank (figure 30 gallons) so 465 gallons in the basement minus air space for the sump so take it back down to about 435 gallons

I have two glass block windows in the basement. I also live in SE Michigan as well so we have winter here LOL

The basement has a fresh air intake that feeds right at the furnace.

I have no problem installing fans to vent to the outside I can just drill through because the side of the house are sided with vinyl siding.

My questions are how many fans and where?

The tank will be two sides viewabel (I have the tank in the basenment and we are starting to finish the basement now) with a maintenece room for reefing activities behind it. I am using greenboard 5/8 and styro insulation around the tank to decerase noise.

would it be better to vent the hood directly to the outside or vent the room its in or both? I also wondered if another fan on the opposite side of the basement to circulate as much air as possible?

Please suggest, provide links, experience, drawing, tarot card readings, LOL ect.........

Thanks in advance!!!

szwab · #2 08/01/2005, 01:03 PM

Mantis here on RC has a nice system that turns on by either temp or humidity and uses a furnace type blower. I'll send him a link to this thread.

OldmillXxX · #3 08/01/2005, 01:30 PM

I too would like some additional information on this. I have a 55g upstairs with a 70g stocktank in the rock wall basement. I have a window fan, on low in the room upstairs that gently sucks the air out of the room (it stays quite cool for now with the central AC running). I still; however, get substantial humidity in the basement and condensation on the air ducts and furnace in the basement. The damp air makes the AC run more and harder, not to mention the bad air created in the basement that gets dispersed to the rest of the house. Needless to say, I am in the process of redoing everything to prevent these measures.

I thought about building a small room in the basement to vent outside, or purchasing one of those plastic storage sheds like you see in the stores and modifying that (with venting) to contain the moisture better.

Like most on heare, I'm trying to take the cheapest approach I can. One thing I have learned is that cheaper usually means longer and more headaches to get the same results.

Good luck! I'm listening...

Mantis · #4 08/01/2005, 02:10 PM

I have a large tank (400 gallon) upstairs and a tank room in the basement.
The upstairs right now is 40% humidity. The tank room stays at 60%.

An exhaust fan will turn on if the basement tank room gets to be above 74 degrees or a humidity level of 60% or above. This is controlled by an Air 1 controller. I also run a dehumidifer in another part of the basement so when the exhaust fan kicks on it draws less humid air into the tank room
http://www.plantlightinghydroponics....roducts_id=361

I'm using one of these fans
http://www.energyfederation.org/cons...cPath/30_85_99

With my currrent system I'm able to keep my water temp. below 79 degrees without the use of a chiller.

skippyreef · #5 08/01/2005, 03:34 PM

Mantis,

Which Model Fan are you using? I was planning on using a few to vent teh tank room and basement. With 400 gallons of water in the basement I want to make sure to exhaust properly. Do you have pics of the system?

springerhd · #6 08/01/2005, 05:55 PM

Looking to do something similar for my fish room which is in my garage. Where do you vent the exhausted air to?

Mantis · #7 08/01/2005, 09:17 PM

I'm using the 190 cfm model, just depends on the size of the room your trying to vent. The nice thing about these fans is they have a damper built in so it shuts out outside air when not running.

It exhausts outside the house through a 4 inch hole with a dryer vent cover

skippyreef · #8 08/01/2005, 11:18 PM

From what I have read I should try to seal the fish room up as best as I can but there are always gaps in an inwall design and spaces for air to escape.

I will be using green board and a water proof paint (marine grade for floor and ceiling in this area. I am estimating the room will be
9x10 or 90 Sqft.

I ahve read about teh negative pressure situation in houses with appliances (heaters/water tanks) drawing in CO and it is scarey.

I have monitors BTW (I am a dad LOL) for this. But I do not want to take chances either.

The house is new (built in 2004) and we are the original owners. I took pictures of the area where the tank will be. There is a furnace vent that is going to be in the tank room for A/C and Heat. The house is 1660 SQ ft two story with a 3 ton A/C unit. We slightly oversized it D/T upper floor cooling. It takes out humidity well.

The furnace has a fresh air intake that feeds it with fresh air via a 6 inch pipe as well as another route for make up air via a 6 inch pipe. I will post pics of all this now. Please advise on what you think are the best measures to mold proof this area of the house!!! The Exhaust fan in the fish room is a must but any thing else you other large tank guys have done is appreciated so please share!!

Area to be enclosed (rest of basement is also being finished.

Furnace (which will be in a seperate utility room) the black pipe leading into the galvanized cylinder is the other air flow to the furnace. I think this is to prevent negative pressure but would like opinions.

Heat vent

Small window in tank room area

ANother shot of tank room area

Cold air make up for house (we have two lines like this, both to the furnace, the other is the one that feeds outside the furnace)

I appreciate any input! I want to do it right the first time!!!

skippyreef · #9 08/03/2005, 01:05 AM

Mantis,

Do you have any issues with negative pressure?

LargeAngels · #10 08/03/2005, 07:52 AM

Just keep in mind that anything metal in the room will eventually rust. May not show up the first year or two, but it will. I would suggest a good rust preventative primer for anything that will be metal. My first house I didn't think about that so much, but with a total volume of 1,000 gallons after a few years you start to see it.

skippyreef · #11 08/03/2005, 09:23 AM

does that mean the pump too ? Not to much metal. I will take teat vent off though and maybe just get a plastic one with a damper on it to prevent backflow into the ventilatiopn system.

capncapo · #12 08/03/2005, 11:43 AM

A simple suggestion for those of you with humidity issues in the basement:

Cut a hole in your cold air return that is the size of a register. Place the register in the hole and put two screws in to hold the register. Open the register and let it suck your warm humid air into the return.

The air will become part of your heating / cooling air and will therefore be dehumidified as it passes through your system.

I have done this on two systems with excellent results. They have gone from condensate dripping off of supply runs to having a small amount of sweat. The good thing is that it costs practically nothing, takes very little time to do, and, you can do it yourself.

For those of you with vent fans:

Remember that in order to exhaust air from your house/basement, you have to be sucking outside air in from somewhere. If you live in a humid area your are trading cooler, humid air for fresh, hot humid air so you are doing nothing but costing yourself money to cool and dehumidify the warm air.

Conversely, in winter you are sucking in dry air ( a good thing ) but it is cold air and you now have to pay to heat that air. There is a device called an "air exchanger" that will exause your humid air and bring in dry air but it will also retain 80% of the heat that would otherwise be lost. They are great for the winter but obviously not summer.

Humidity does NOT make an A/C work harder or longer. Your A/C runs until it satisfies the thermostat and then shuts off.

Most furnaces that have a fresh air intake that is piped from the outside are 90% efficient units and the intake is part of the system that allows them to achieve that efficiency.Those units also have an exhaust run that is piped to the outside versus just letting it go up a flue. Those furnaces also create a condensate while running that is very acidic and will dissolve any metal plumbing pipes that it drips into. There is a neutralizer that is made that plugs into the condensate line to neutralize the acid in the condensate. If you have metal drain pipes in your floor drain, I would highly recommend that a neutralizer be part of your system.

skippyreef · #13 08/03/2005, 12:55 PM

The cold air return is the portion where that ancilaary pipe is correct in the pics above. So the wamer humid air will be circulated into the furnace and teh humidity is removed in both winter and summer this way?

skippyreef · #14 08/03/2005, 01:00 PM

Also, will the salt linger on the air that is sucked into the cold air intake and rust the heat exchanger over time? The furnace is being seperated in a utility room so as not to come into contact with the tank and the tank will be in its own room as well (in wall) with a viewing area outside the fishroom (classic 2 sides viewable in wall).

capncapo · #15 08/03/2005, 01:22 PM

skippyreef,

The cold air return is the side of your furnace where the filter resides. All of the duct work leading to that side of your furnace is part of the return. You can place the register anywhere in that run. The closer to the ceiling, the better.

In summer that air will be dehumidified by being blown through your A coil and in winter it will be vaporized and will go out your flue ( or exhaust for 90% units ).

Unless you are sucking salt "spray" into the return there is no need to worry about your heat exchanger. Don't forget, when water evaporates, the salt stays behind hence the need to top off with plain RO/DI water.

Something you can do if space and ceiling height permit is to have a piece of duct run into your fish room that would be tied into your cold air return.

skippyreef · #16 08/03/2005, 02:13 PM

so the duct running into the cold air return from the fish room will exhaust out the stale air in there and vaporize it as you have said up into the flue and out.

I think I would rather do it this way and I have the room. I will incorporate that into the design. Will doing it this way take care of any humidity I would have? I also have a vent on the side of the furnace from the unit itself that blow out cool air from the furnace or warm air when it is on and this is not closeable. It is not a standard floor or wall ven it is skinnier than those and a tad longer. Will this interefer with things?

ReeferMac · #17 08/03/2005, 02:13 PM

I've got a 230 gallon in the basement, and have heat/humidity issue's all summer long. Capncapo's got some good advice, I'll have to re-read in more detail and see if I can implement. Those glass block windows look great, but are a PIA for venting (I have similar ones). As you're doing this all from scratch, I'd suggest taking your time and doing it all right, the first time. Well worth the money and aggrevation, in the long run.

- Mac

griss · #18 08/03/2005, 02:37 PM

Mac, I'm with you. I have about 850 system gallons in my basement. I have a exhaust fan on a humidistat for the winters (no sense in using that in the summer as it will pull in 90% humid air), a dehumidifier running full time and a window AC unit running 24/7. With all this, I still hit 60-70% humidity in the basement

Our Furnace / AC does not have any return ducts in the basement. So, I am making Capncapo come over Sunday and help me put one in

skippyreef · #19 08/03/2005, 02:53 PM

I have two return ducts in the basement and one is right in the tank room area from my furnace. If it is really this simple (and I dont doubt you at all) I wonder why people havent thought of this? Is it becasue we are not HVAC guys LOL

SO anywhere along those cold air runs I can tap into them and pull in the basement air to have it exhuast out. Another thing Is I am putting in a dutch door on hte basement itself and using the full door on the fishroom. We never leave teh door closed to the basement any way. Will leaving this door open assist with pulling in air from the rest of my house to be circulated and mitigate the humiduty as well?

I am going to go with a 100 gallon sump now that will have about 60 gallons of water in it and the tank should have around 350 gallons in it. this is a slight reduction in volume LOL. If I need a dehumidifier I found some that are reated to run in a basement environment that are areound 230.00.

By doing this though I should be ok is what you are saying it seems. Keep the opinions and experiences coming.

Johnsteph10 · #20 08/03/2005, 03:00 PM

griss - is your canopy open or closed?

My aim is to have the canopy closed and relatively air tight along with the fishroom so that I can "separate" the rest of the basement from the fishroom and the tank.

Does anyone do this? I'm hoping it should make things easier to control.

griss · #21 08/03/2005, 03:01 PM

Skippy,

I actually directed Capncapo to this thread after a discussion we were having this AM. He's done this to Nanook's returns and according to Nanook, it is working like a charm. Capncapo has also done it to another local reefers and it is working there as well. He's coming over to my house this weekend to help with mine.

Capncapo told me that it is best to cut a hole in the return duct as high up as possible. If you already have return vents in your basement, it may not help. In Nanook's case (and mine too) our basements have return ducts, but they do not have vents in the basement. By cutting a vent into it, we are now pulling air from the basement where no air was pulled before. The air then passes over the condenser in the AC unit. This allows the moisture to condense and be removed by your AC.

griss · #22 08/03/2005, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Johnsteph10
griss - is your canopy open or closed?

My aim is to have the canopy closed and relatively air tight along with the fishroom so that I can "separate" the rest of the basement from the fishroom and the tank.

Does anyone do this? I'm hoping it should make things easier to control.

John, right now my basement is not finished. Just a few walls away from the tank are up. So, no hood, no walls around the tank. In this pic, you can see there is no canopy or any type of enclosure around the system as it is today. Note: The date on the picture is incorrect.

griss · #23 08/03/2005, 03:06 PM

Latest picture I have is from November (date on the camera is wrong)

and I'm not a good photographer. You can see, still no hood or canopy here.

skippyreef · #24 08/03/2005, 04:09 PM

Griss,

What I meant by returns is heat registers to heat and cool the basement not actual intakes LOL. I am going to call a friend who is a HVAC guy here and discuss getting this done this weekend.

skippyreef · #25 08/03/2005, 04:16 PM

I just went down to look and the large black intake (flex hose that feeds the cold air intake manifold (dont know if right word) comes in through the proposed fish room. Would I want to open up and vent in that or just go into the sheet metal and run a 6 inch diameter feed into the manifold from the fish room / tank area?

Also would it be wise to do a run from the opposite end of the basement as well or is one feed into the return enough?