Strontium Overdose Symptoms?

[ejocam]

Does anyone know the symptoms of Strontium Overdose? A have some corals that look dry. The tissue looks like it is very dry and thin. Even blotchy. This happened overnight to about 8 Acro. Alot of the other ones lost the pop of color too. Strontiuk was the only thing I dosed different

[Echidna09]

Does anyone know the role Strontium plays in coral growth? Sorry I can't help out ejocam, I never really understood why it was needed.

[wentreefgirl]

Ya, I never really double dosed it. But I can say that I got that same reaction with the prodibio.

[Kip]

its not an overnite thing... but i've read/heard that Sr is used up quicker than Ca... so corals start building more SrCO3 than CaCO3 and the skeletons are more brittle

i wish i could site a reference, but i have no idea where i heard it nor the validity of it.

[250G]

If it was overnight, it could be something to consider. Water change and wait for recovery??? Hope it is this simple for you and you get it sorted out.

FWIW, many experienced hobbiests with established tanks are experiencing problems with SPS right now, myself included.

[slojmn]

Eric,
I have never added strontium so no help here but that dried out look sounds familiar . I would second the idea of a decent water change so the strontium and anything else is diluted a bit. Good luck and keep us updated.

250G, uh-oh...not you to . I hope whatever it is settles out for you. I have an efflo with some base recession but everythig gelse seems pretty good...the efflo has me concerned. I am testing params every day and keeping a close eye on things. There seems to be a lot going around with sps lately. I'll keep my fingers crossed for both of you and Eric.

[Serioussnaps]

Eric....Have you posted this in the Chemistry Forumn?

How long had you been using that particular bottle of strontium?

[znut Reefer]

Also not sure about this. Eric are you using Zeovit on your tank? I have heard some people that used zeovit have had some of their sps look dry, and the sps don't seem to have as much slime like they are suppose to.

[Harlequinreef]

Originally posted by 250G


FWIW, many experienced hobbiests with established tanks are experiencing problems with SPS right now, myself included.

This is interesting, several high end SPS tanks in my area have also suffered major losses recently. The only major correlation between them is the brand of salt but many others using the same brand are better than ever.

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !


Hey Eric ! What's up ? ...

Strontium has been anecdotally correlated with skeletogenesis and/or calcification in scleractinians, more specifically, with skeletal density and "growth rate" ... and not without intense, significant disagreement.

Which is probably no surprise to you ...

Originally posted by ejocam
Does anyone know the symptoms of Strontium Overdose?...

Not in terms of corals, but with regards to crustaceans Sr toxicity acts like Iodide toxicity ... rapid molting and deformed exoskeletons. Average seawater concentration of Sr is ~ 8.1 ppm.



The "tissue thing" has interested me for a long time. There is emergent research which suggests a more direct relationship between tissue vs. skeletogenesis (... with some interesting variability and lack of uniformity ...) than has been previously acknowledged. Have you seen this one?

Observations of the tissue-skeleton interface in the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata
E. Tambutté, D. Allemand, D. Zoccola, A. Meibom, S. Lotto, N. Caminiti and S. Tambutté
Coral Reefs, Volume 26, Number 3, September, 2007

Abstract Link
http://www.springerlink.com/content/b88w43n238r25404/


I bring this up because, until I stumbled across the above reference, I had never put much stock in the connection between strontium dosing, tissue "quality", and skeletogenesis rate ... and I still don't ...

...

But, if there turns out to be a connection between Sr uptake by zooxanthellae and photosynthate production, or, between strontium and "food" intake due to Sr participation in mucus net processes ... think metabolism ... then some interesting revisions in our thinking may be in order. If this is the case (a relatively big "if" at this point as far as the literature goes), then a shift in Sr dosing patterns/products may indeed be the source of what you're seeing.

JMO ...

Originally posted by znut Reefer
... and the sps don't seem to have as much slime like they are suppose to.

I've watched this be reported as well and, perhaps surprisingly, strontium may well be involved (as opposed to being a ZEOvit methodology issue). The correlation between strontium vs. coral mucus has been around for a while. For example ...

Clode and Marshall (2002), found that strontium occurred in high concentration in the mucous layers of Galaxea fascicularis, and proposed that the positively charged strontium neutralized negatively charged mucin glycoproteins. They further proposed a positive role that strontium could have in aiding calcification in corals by promoting the concentration of calcium ions near the ectodermal cell layer. By helping to form a stable mucin layer next to the ectodermis, strontium might help maintain an artificially high calcium concentration near the surface of ectodermal cells. this would aid what is thought to be a limiting factor in calification: the active transport of calcium. This hypothesis provides a plausible mechanism for aquarium corals to benefit from strontium additions (Holmes-Farley, 2003) but remains to be investigated.

Delbeek & Sprung (2005)

As an aside, it is perhaps worth noting that paleoecologists have long been interested in Sr/Ca ratios in the study of ancient reefs using living reefs as their models. Here's an example of the kind of stuff some of them say ...

...we found a good correlation between growth rates and strontium incorporation, suggesting that that there is a strong vital effect ...

Incorporation of Strontium into Skeleton of the Zooxanthellae Coral Acropora sp.
S. Reynaud, C. Ferrier-Pages, F. Boisson, D. Allemand , R. Fairbanks
Geophysical Research Abstracts, Vol. 6, 06937, 2004
http://www.cosis.net/abstracts/EGU04...04-J-06937.pdf

Again, it ought be noted that other researchers suggest that what is really going on with strontium vs. coral growth has more to do with zooxanthellae uptake of Sr, than it does with the direct participation of Sr in skeletogenesis. For example ...

The strontium-to-calcium ratio (Sr/Ca) of reef coral skeleton is commonly used as a paleothermometer to estimate sea surface temperatures (SSTs) at crucial times in Earth's climate history. However, these estimates are disputed, because uptake of Sr into coral skeleton is thought to be affected by algal symbionts (zooxanthellae) living in the host tissue. Here, we show that significant distortion of the Sr/Ca temperature record in coral skeleton occurs in the presence of algal symbionts. ...

The Effect of Algal Symbionts on the Accuracy of Sr/Ca Paleotemperatures from Coral
Anne L. Cohen, Kathryn E. Owens, Graham D. Layne, Nobumichi Shimizu
Science 12 April 2002: Vol. 296. no. 5566, pp. 331 - 333
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/conten...t/296/5566/331

More confusing is that earlier researchers found Sr to be a competitive inhibitor of calcification (Chalker 1976; Ip & Krishnaveni, 1991). Isn't trying to translate field research about strontium into hobbyist application just grand? ...

FWIW ... maybe nothing ...



HTH

[ejocam]

Thanks for all the replies everyone. Luckily it was some common cultured staghorns. The only nice piece it really affected were my Candlelight Acro, Tyree Soli and a Pink and Blue Milli. Everything else faded a bit but no tissue loss. I did a water change and everything seems to be ok now. I just have to let it run its course.

The stupid thing is I did this about 4 months ago and told myself I would never dose with out testing again. Well, I guess my wife is right, I am not a good listener Things have been so hectic and I have been swamped lately. Being so busy it has really wore me down. I know when I am burnt out I make some really bad moves. I guess it's time to take a week or two off

Thanks a lot guys and be careful with that Strontium!

[dots]

I would really like to find out what is causing this and the common demoninator. I would really like to believe that all of the problems I have had along with others have been unrelated, but the observations are haunting.

One of the main observation I had was the corals were "faded" and had lost thier iridecent shimmer to them, the brittle tips, really brings it home.

I don't dose Sr, and have found very few comonalities to the tanks that have had this problem.

Though I changed a number of things recently, I am not sure what did it, but started dosing the Elos Amino Acids. I am not much of a cheerleader for products, but this is getting serious for some people. I think that it helped get me over the hump and have had some of my first growth in months. (We all know how fast Green slimers encrust and grow right? I snapped a piece of in July.........its still loose!!!)

Something, whatever is causing this inhibits new zoanathelle growth, tissue, and calcification, along with recession from what I can observe.

WC's seem to alleviate the symptoms for a short period only to return in a few weeks.

I have been very troubled with this problem as with LobsterofJustice. As well, I have been pm'd by others facing this.

I think it is more widespread than we believe and I for one would like to find the cause of it so as to prevent it.

[j.prostrata]

Honestly I believe it related to better understanding of reducing nutrients and MUCH more powerful skimmers. BB tanks and the like. I lost my entire tank after adding a BK 250. I was very low nutirent .01 hanna and after addign the Bk within 2 months my tank took a very bad downword spiral. I am rebuilding again but I ditched the BK and went back to a beckett style skimmer. I use AA and feed more and things seem to be doing much better. Just some thoughts I have come to over the last yr and a half.

[ejocam]

FWIW, I think whatever "common cold" that is going around with hobbyists all over is something I have yet to experience. This was definitely a Strontium overdose. John, from Warner Marine called me yesterday and gave me the rundown of the OD effects. Keep in mind that he also mentioned that Potassium Overdose has similar traits, which are burnt tips, burnt new growth areas on the base and a kind of burnt dry look.

Like I mentioned earlier, this was a very stupid mistake on my part as I just finished experiencing this a couple of months ago.

As dots and a few others mentioned, I did however experience some paling and loss of the shimmer, iridescent and pop. This I attribute a faulty test kit for my DKH and RO/DI Water. Since I started buffering the tank to the test of the LaMotte test kit and adding for DI Chambers things made a drastic change for the better. It is amazing how the DKH affects the health of my Acroporas!

[rc1214b]

I agree with Dots.. When Kip first posted about his problems I asked about the dry tissue look. I also think the tuliped polyps are something we need to keep an eye on.

Hopefully Eric your problem is solved and everything's normal.

[ejocam]

Originally posted by rc1214b
Hopefully Eric your problem is solved and everything's normal.

Thanks rc1214b, the affected cultured colonies were removed in panic. The few frags are hanging in there and some Milli's that did not have Polyp Extension are in full bloom this morning

[carib]

Eric,last 4 month i've lost about 40 acros that first became dry then lost the tips.My conclusion is potassium overdose,and I am very confident on this.Previusly SR overdose gave me bad algea outbreak but nothing more,and I stoped playing with Sr fewyears ago.I also doubt the same salt that we are using. Sam.

[ejocam]

Originally posted by carib
Eric,last 4 month i've lost about 40 acros that first became dry then lost the tips.My conclusion is potassium overdose,and I am very confident on this.Previusly SR overdose gave me bad algea outbreak but nothing more,and I stoped playing with Sr fewyears ago.I also doubt the same salt that we are using. Sam.

Sam, when I overdosed Potassium, my Montis RTN'd. Strontium overdose is burnt tips and burnt tisssue on the new growth area around the base. This comes from one of the additive manufacturers. However, he also said Potassium could show similar traits

[ReefJunkieOK]

Originally posted by rc1214b
I agree with Dots.. When Kip first posted about his problems I asked about the dry tissue look. I also think the tuliped polyps are something we need to keep an eye on.

Hopefully Eric your problem is solved and everything's normal.

Can someone point me to this thread that rc1214b is speaking of? I have "tuliped polyps".

[Kip]

I wish you guys would figure this out soon ... my monster is close to shutting down.

As far as my issues... i cant figure out why it only affects 1 or 2 acros at a time... then when they are gone... the problem moves onto 1 or 2 other acros. Still not having trouble with any other stonies.

I think i am down to 1 large blue formosa and then 4-5 small acro colonies and i will then be acro-less