Cuttlefish Where to Buy? 75G how to keep?

[Bubbashrimp]

Thanks Thales

Allow me to put my own .02 in. I think that maybe a cephalopod type organization should test aquariists for their ability to take care of the blue ring(Saftey, Chemistry, Nutrition, Identification, Ecology etc.). If you pass the test you should recieve a permit. Like falconry have government(or in this case a representative of the cepholopod organization) officials check the enviroment before you recieve a BR. Like falconry have different levels such as apprentice(for the beginners would only allow easy level cephs), general(would allow for a much greater diversity), and master would allow for the Blue ring.

Otherwise I agree with gonodactlyus!!!

[Thales]

Interesting idea bubba. Realistically, I don't think it will ever happen. The same kind of idea has been floated for decades in the aquarium world (10-15 years ago people said the same kind of thing about acros) and the reptile world. Funding, logistics and oversight are major hurdles to any such program and it would also require a near complete revamping and legislating of the way the aquarium industry imports and collects animals for the trade.

[Bubbashrimp]

I am not thinking in terms of actual legislation, although that would be a great capstone to this idea. I am thinking more in terms of an ethical contract, like the ones that dog breeders sign inorder to be affiliated with the breed club. If the blue ring can truly kill humans I think that we can all agree that it will only be a matter of time until this would happen in aquaria. If legislators see a system in place, that works, after enough people have died, they will probably adopt that system.

Funding would come from memberships, testing, and donations. Logistics would come from local reef clubs/master level permit holders concerned with the issues that come with cephalopods. In my own mind the only thing that has yet to be done is to develope a test.

[Thales]

Originally posted by Bubbashrimp
I am not thinking in terms of actual legislation, although that would be a great capstone to this idea. I am thinking more in terms of an ethical contract, like the ones that dog breeders sign inorder to be affiliated with the breed club.

Gotcha. Though with the complexity of the industry in total, it will be hard to 'enforce' anything. Check out TONMO.com for just such cehpy ethical discussion.

If the blue ring can truly kill humans I think that we can all agree that it will only be a matter of time until this would happen in aquaria.

I don't necessarily agree.

If legislators see a system in place, that works, after enough people have died, they will probably adopt that system.

The more probable outcome of involving legislators is a shut down of importing in general.

Funding would come from memberships, testing, and donations. Logistics would come from local reef clubs/master level permit holders concerned with the issues that come with cephalopods. In my own mind the only thing that has yet to be done is to develope a test.

Its a massive undertaking in time and logistics. But if you have the juice, go for it! Like I say, TONMO is the place for cehpy ethics discussions!

[Bubbashrimp]

I do not think that enforcement would even be a concern. It would take a lot of studying to become a permit holder and permits can be cancelled. But again all of this would be in the "ethical contract". Of course some people would breach the contract or not even sign the contract and just get a BR...however, I tend to believe that most people in this hobby are true to there word and are "good" citizens



you said "I don't necessarily agree. " Ask your self the question how old do you have to be to aquire a blue ring? I do not know for sure if there are age limits, but you can seen my point, I hope. Not everyone that would get a blue ring is even ready for a cephalopod. Can you not see the senario that would involve an uninformed entry level aquarist just buying a pretty lookin octopus with blue circles from an uninformed dealer.



you said "The more probable outcome of involving legislators is a shut down of importing in general". Excellent point I did not even think about this. This would only support a need for a permit type system, So are legislators cannot take the freedom of owning an octopus away from us.



you said "Its a massive undertaking in time and logistics. But if you have the juice, go for it! Like I say, TONMO is the place for cehpy ethics discussions!" I was hoping someone else could do this. At the very least get some help.

[Thales]

Originally posted by Bubbashrimp
I do not think that enforcement would even be a concern. It would take a lot of studying to become a permit holder and permits can be cancelled. But again all of this would be in the "ethical contract". Of course some people would breach the contract or not even sign the contract and just get a BR...however, I tend to believe that most people in this hobby are true to there word and are "good" citizens

Most people in this hobby aren't on forums like this one. IME, most people in this hobby don't care much more than wanting something pretty in their living room.

you said "I don't necessarily agree. " Ask your self the question how old do you have to be to aquire a blue ring? I do not know for sure if there are age limits, but you can seen my point, I hope. Not everyone that would get a blue ring is even ready for a cephalopod. Can you not see the senario that would involve an uninformed entry level aquarist just buying a pretty lookin octopus with blue circles from an uninformed dealer.

Sure, but this has been the case for the last 20 years. BR's have been coming in all that time, uninformed people have been buying them all that time, and there hasn't been a single reported death from them.
The worried about animals that could kill you road is a worrisome one to walk down - there are many corals that have toxins that could kill you too.

you said "The more probable outcome of involving legislators is a shut down of importing in general". Excellent point I did not even think about this. This would only support a need for a permit type system, So are legislators cannot take the freedom of owning an octopus away from us.

Than the permit has no teeth. I could see the utility of guidelines about BR and other cephs ( and actually both TONMO.com and my site www.DaisyHillCuttleFarm.com have such guidelines posted), but I think a toothless permitting process is more work than it is worth.

you said "Its a massive undertaking in time and logistics. But if you have the juice, go for it! Like I say, TONMO is the place for cehpy ethics discussions!" I was hoping someone else could do this. At the very least get some help.

A lot of people with these kind of ideas hope others will do it. Its human nature I suppose.

[Bubbashrimp]

You said "Most people in this hobby aren't on forums like this one. IME, most people in this hobby don't care much more than wanting something pretty in their living room."

Yes, but when we destroy all of the habitats that marine aquarists depend upon for their collections or there are regulations against all collections for ornamentals, The breeders will have a monopoly and therefore the power to determine whom gets a certain octopus or not. Just like those fancy macaws that go for $8000 a bird right now. Even if you have the money putting your foot in the door with the breeder is a whole other issue.

you said "Sure, but this has been the case for the last 20 years. BR's have been coming in all that time, uninformed people have been buying them all that time, and there hasn't been a single reported death from them.
The worried about animals that could kill you road is a worrisome one to walk down - there are many corals that have toxins that could kill you too. "

Sure maybe a coral permit might be needed as well. I understand your point and it is a very good one. However, I think that gonodactylus does the best job of arguing the fact that you might be the best aquarist in the world, but the child that is inside your home might stick its hand in there anyways.

you said "Than the permit has no teeth. I could see the utility of guidelines about BR and other cephs ( and actually both TONMO.com and my site www.DaisyHillCuttleFarm.com have such guidelines posted), but I think a toothless permitting process is more work than it is worth."

I love your site by the way!!! You could be right or wrong about the permit having teeth. The only way to now if a permit will develope teeth is to understand the demand for the permit.


you said "A lot of people with these kind of ideas hope others will do it. Its human nature I suppose."

"a slight breach in protocal as he cut right to the TRIPLE DOG DARE"