Rock from a miracle mud setup - PO4 issue

[Weatherman]

Originally posted by finneganswake
Boy, you really missed my point. My point is that the problem isn't in the rocks, it's in the design of the system and/or the husbandry of the same. Cooking his rocks isn't going to solve either. Well designed tanks with owners possessing good husbandry skills don't need rock cooking to survive.

That wasn't the original question.

[finneganswake]

Originally posted by Weatherman
We’re getting outside the scope of the question here…

The question is… How do you effectively reduce the phosphate load on rock, which has been, not is going to be placed in, a nutrient rich tank?

That’s all.

The simplest answer is: Cook the rock.

But I cured my rock in-tank, which led to high phosphate in the water. I did lots of water changes and ran phosphate removal media after it was cured and now the phosphate is undetectable. Notice--no rock cooking, no algae issues. I guess I could suscribe to the sky is falling idea that my rocks will eventually explode, but I have too much fun looking at beautiful tanks that have been set up for over a decade without cooking their rocks to do so.

[finneganswake]

Originally posted by Weatherman
That wasn't the original question.

I wasn't answering the original question, I was addressing a response to one of my posts.

[aubee91]

Originally posted by finneganswake
Boy, you really missed my point. My point is that the problem isn't in the rocks, it's in the design of the system and/or the husbandry of the same. Cooking his rocks isn't going to solve either. Well designed tanks with owners possessing good husbandry skills don't need rock cooking to survive.

Or maybe the point that's being missed is that in this case, the problem is in the rocks. And the system causing the problem wasn't his and neither was the husbandry. He just wanted to know how to get the PO4 out of them as he was probably going with the (accurate, imo) assumption that it's generally a bad idea to introduce an additional source of phosphate into our systems.

If there's a better way to do it than cooking the rocks, cool. I'd like to know what it is too.

Rock cooking came about in the following way:
My tank crashed-->it couldn't have been me, it must have been the sand-->removal of sand bed-->a couple of months with no problems-->oops, I'm getting problems with my bare bottom also-->it couldn't have been me, it must have been the rocks-->rock cooking-->a couple of months with no problems-->oops, I'm getting problems even after cooking my rocks-->it couldn't have been me, I must not have cooked the rocks enough-->more rock cooking-->etc, etc.

Notice that "It couldn't have been me" is a pretty consistent part of this nonsense?

[janco]

Ooops, guys, I didn't mean to stir up a hornet's nest here. Again, FWIW, the PO4 and the algae in my tank are well under control. It is that way because I don't overfeed, I've got a great skimmer/sump, and a pretty good fuge setup. It wasn't always that way though: when I first setup the tank, I bought 80 pounds of LR from a guy who had it sitting in a Brute can. He had gotten the rock free from someone who gave up the hobby because they couldn't get a handle on their algae problems. Anyway, I had algae issues for months after putting this rock in the tank, but with good husbandry (read: feeding, skimming, water changes, macro algae mangement, and algae eating critters), I got a handle on those algae issues and most of that original rock is now just about fully covered in coraline.

Don't know if that helps the discussion or not, and thanks again for your input regarding the isue with this new rock I just got.

jan

[RichConley]

Cure the rocks. All the advantages of cooking without killing off the coraline.

[xtrstangx]

Theres nothing I love more than an uneducated opinion, finneganswake.

Cook the rock.

[finneganswake]

Originally posted by xtrstangx
Theres nothing I love more than an uneducated opinion, finneganswake.

Cook the rock.

Uneducated opinion? Could you back this up with an educated opinion

Remember, kids, educated people follow trends started by "experts" on a website. Uneducated people actually read books and follow established wisdom.

Remember, this is coming from an "educated" person who's been keeping reefs for 6 MONTHS!!!

[xtrstangx]

finneganswake, you have suggested no better way to remove the phosphate from the rock, which will continually leech out for a while.

IMO, an expert would be Dr. Ron Shimek. Many of the big BB advocates aren't experts, IMO, they do have an educated opinion and know what they are talking about.

There is one thing I don't like with books in this hobby. By the time they write the book, edit it, and get it published, the hobby has changed. This hobby has too many new ideas to make an effective book.. by the time the book has been published, it is outdated.

Just because I've been in the hobby for 9 months doesn't mean anything. I've seen people that have 5 years of "experience" with the UGLIEST tanks. I've also seen people whose tanks are 3 months old and already have awesome SPS growth.

As far as your uneducated opinion.. you have never seen SeanT's tank in person. You don't know what husbandry he goes through. There was no reason to attack his tank or his methods.

Opinions are like armpits: everyone has one and they all stink. If you wish to continue your argument with me, you can send me a PM. No reason to do it on this thread (where it is completely irrelevant).

Good day and happy reefkeeping.

[finneganswake]

Originally posted by xtrstangx
finneganswake, you have suggested no better way to remove the phosphate from the rock, which will continually leech out for a while.

Originally posted by finneganswake
But I cured my rock in-tank, which led to high phosphate in the water. I did lots of water changes and ran phosphate removal media after it was cured and now the phosphate is undetectable. Notice--no rock cooking, no algae issues.

Uh, yes I did

The point is not removing phosphate from the rock--that's looking at it from the wrong direction. You remove the phosphate from the water as (or after, in my case, but I'll do it differently the next time) the rock cures. A well designed tank can deal with rocks and any associated issues.

[fishman805]

Originally posted by xtrstangx
Opinions are like armpits: everyone has one and they all stink.

" mine doesn't stink......

But this thread is starting to....

Oh well, I'm glad that your tank is doing well ( meant for the thread starter )

Good luck with the LR issues

Bob

[ichthyophile]

up until the flaming started, this was a beneficial thread to me.

reading seanT's lenghty re-post shed some light on my own red cyanobacter algea problem. i am running a skimmer, caulerpa refugium, and some rowaphos in my system, yet the red algae persists. (no hair, diatom cyled quickly). i now realize that my live rock must be contributing to my phosphate levels. i bought 50 lbs of fiji from a friend of a friend, for a decent price. he had the rock "curing" for several months in a filled-to-the-brim 20 gallon tank, complete with a powerhead, heater, and a **metal halide light**. i didn't think much of it then, but he was indeed farming an algae based ecosystem, as mentioned. damn that guy and his light... the rock is gorgeous, full of feather dusters, sponges, and a number of other things. i am starting to get a nice patina of coraline algae, but can't get past that red cyanobacteria on the lower portions of the rock. my tank is partially stocked and has an established cleaning crew, so i can't shut down and cook my rock, but i do appreciate the notion that my rock is likely leeching phosphate as an explanation for the strength of my algae bloom.

[aubee91]

quote:Originally posted by xtrstangx
finneganswake, you have suggested no better way to remove the phosphate from the rock, which will continually leech out for a while.


quote:Originally posted by finneganswake
But I cured my rock in-tank, which led to high phosphate in the water. I did lots of water changes and ran phosphate removal media after it was cured and now the phosphate is undetectable. Notice--no rock cooking, no algae issues.

Originally posted by finneganswake
Uh, yes I did

The point is not removing phosphate from the rock--that's looking at it from the wrong direction. You remove the phosphate from the water as (or after, in my case, but I'll do it differently the next time) the rock cures. A well designed tank can deal with rocks and any associated issues.

The operative word there was better. The whole idea behind removing the phosphate from the rock in the first place was to prevent it from gettting into the water. Putting the phosphate in your tank water is hardly a better way to remove the phosphate from the rock. If it gets in the water it can grow nuisance algae and inhibit the skeletization of stony corals.

[AHBrit]

keep the rock in the tank
run the phosban reactor to keep the excess phosphates out of the watercolumn. This will stop the soon to be formed algae speading off the rocks.
just keep pulling the algae off the rock when it gets long enough.

i recommend seahares for the interim, then trade them to a LFS when your clear.

The great thing about the algae bloom youll get = Biological nitrate reducer. Your Tyree frags will love it

[AHBrit]

oh yeah, use filter socks and the biggest skimmer you can borrow off a friend.
change sock every 2 days

[Lobster]

Sorry those guys de-railed your thread.

I think you are really asking if there is a way to get all the phosphate out of your rock quickly, and the answer is probably "no". If there's that much phosphate stored in there, it will take time for it to leach out. Like you said, it came from a system where the owner apparently knew phosphates were tied up in that rock.

Doing water changes is probably the cheapest and easiest way to export the phosphate and other gunk. Phosphate remover would likely fill up pretty quick at these levels - its better for removing nearly undetectable amounts from an already well-run system. Your best bet is to give it time. Cooking is great for exactly this, but like SeanT pointed out, it does take more than one night!

At any rate, I definitely wouldnt put all those frags ($$$) on phosphate-laden rock.

[Sindjin]

If there's that much phosphate stored in there, it will take time for it to leach out.

Bingo.
NO ONE can determine the amount of PO4/debris build up inside Live Rock. Period. NO ONE can determine how long the rock will shed in a particular setup. So... if you are setting up a new tank...BB, SSB, or DSB... there is only ONE sure way of making sure the rock has enough time to shed all the internal build up...
Cooking it or Curing it in a dark environment. How long? However long it takes until your "dunking and swishing" produces no detritus.

I, unfortuanatly am curing my rock in tank. Its been 3 months and my rock is STILL shedding tons of stuff. It looks pristine though! The Purple and ORange Coralines are AMAZING. Tonight I actually took a Mag 9.5 (with a hose on the output) and blew out my rock. OH MY GOD. I almost tore it down and started cooking. But not yet... I have worked hard to get it to where it is and I will stay the course. But my life would have been SO much easier if I just followed SeanT's post and cooked it for 6 weeks or so.

[bureau13]

I don't see this addressed anywhere in the thread...there is sort of an implied opinion (or maybe question) in the title that suggests the Miracle Mud filtration may have been responsible for the phosphates in the rock. I'm reasonably certain this isn't true, I've run an Ecosystems MM refugium, as have many others, and they're not really known to cause problems like this. At least, I haven't noticed anything like it, and I haven't read any threads by people who have.

jds

[finneganswake]

Originally posted by aubee91
[BThe operative word there was better. The whole idea behind removing the phosphate from the rock in the first place was to prevent it from gettting into the water. Putting the phosphate in your tank water is hardly a better way to remove the phosphate from the rock. If it gets in the water it can grow nuisance algae and inhibit the skeletization of stony corals. [/B]

Right... that must be why my tank is full of algae and corals that don't grow

I think everyone is missing my point here--the phosphate from rocks is a complete non-issue. It's a freaking red herring. Nobody even contemplated cooking their rocks until the promise of a miraculous bare bottom system that would never have algae fell flat on its face. You can't blame the sand anymore, so you have to blame the rocks. Yet many people still have algae problems after cooking their rocks. At this point, reasonable people might start thinking that there is a problem with bare bottom tanks called complete lack of nitrate control--that's what is causing bare bottom tanks to have algae blooms. There is just no space (compared to other systems) for de-nitrifying bacteria to live, especially with the high flow in most bare bottom systems bringing highly oxygenated water into the live rock, therefor negating what little anaerobic bacteria lives in live rock to begin with. Of course, the answer to this is usually "Well, we have such powerful skimmers that this isn't an issue." I've done a little research on this, and it's nonsense. Let's take one of the best protein skimmers on the market--the Deltec line. For example, the AP600 is rated for a 200g tank. The amount of water that flows through it is 160g/hour. So in one hour, the skimmer isn't even turning over the capacity of the tank. The idea that nothing will start breaking down into nitrate over the period of one hour is crazy, and in a system with little de-nitrifying bacteria, once it's made it to nitrate, good luck getting it out of the water.

It is interesting to me that most bare bottom warriors blame a part of the system (phosphate) and then turn around and tell you that you can't measure it when you tell them that your non-BB system doesn't have phosphates. So if I can't measure it, how can you guys be so certain that it's an issue in your tanks IMO, this whole phosphate obsession is completely missing the point--phosphate is a part of any system, period. If you have no phosphate in your tanks, you have no chance of any corals living. The only thing you need to do is keep it reasonably under control, and this is easily accomplished with good husbandry and phosphate absorbing material. NOBODY ever needs to cook their rocks; all you're doing is destroying life on the rocks while briefly putting off another crash since you haven't considered the flaws in your system.

[finneganswake]

Another point I thought I should bring up regarding this voodoo, er, uh, rock cooking process--is anyone troubled by the idea that the main proponent of this brainwashing is a person whose tank looked like this?

Originally posted by SeanT
Before pictures.
All of these are from this Summer.

Personally, I think that someone who let their tank get to this point is the LAST person we should be taking advice from

[xtrstangx]

I think we should let this thread die, finneganswake, rather than continue it. I think the original poster got all the ideas he needed.

Good day and happy reefing.

[finneganswake]

Originally posted by xtrstangx
I think we should let this thread die, finneganswake, rather than continue it. I think the original poster got all the ideas he needed.

Good day and happy reefing.

Well, if you don't like it, maybe next time you should think twice about calling people uneducated when you only have six months under your belt and can't think of any ideas of your own to counter mine.

[fishman805]

Those pictures remind me of someone who jumped into the reef hobby too quickly and overstocked then paid the price..... "ME"...

I learned my lesson after losing a crap load of money and killing off several good pieces that deserved a better chance than I gave them......

I do agree that this thread should be considered dead.... It's now turned into a bickering match.....

Oh and before someone jumps me..?? Although I do have over 30 years in this hobby, all but one year has been FW... I've learned a great deal about the SW side and now enjoy three ( 3 ) well running reef tanks....


Bob

[finneganswake]

Originally posted by fishman805
Those pictures remind me of someone who jumped into the reef hobby too quickly and overstocked then paid the price..... "ME"...

I learned my lesson after losing a crap load of money and killing off several good pieces that deserved a better chance than I gave them......

I do agree that this thread should be considered dead.... It's now turned into a bickering match.....

Oh and before someone jumps me..?? Although I do have over 30 years in this hobby, all but one year has been FW... I've learned a great deal about the SW side and now enjoy three ( 3 ) well running reef tanks....


Bob

Look, we've all made mistakes and it's great to learn from them. My problem is that SeanT is selling a very drastic measure that is a supposed cure-all when he's only recently had a tank full of algae. Where's the long term proof that this method works, and why aren't we listening to people who've had long term algae-free tanks, as they would logically be the experts on this subject? I'm frankly sick of seeing almost any issue that is remotely related to algae being answered with "Cook your rocks because SeanT said so, and he posts a lot so he must be right!" It's also alarming to see that the same people who listened to these guys tell them to rip out their sandbed (another drastic, unneccesary, and counter-productive measure) because this was going to end all problems haven't learned from that mistake and are lapping up their next miracle system. This reminds me so much of the fad diets that go around all the time; each of them promises a miracle and everyone buys their products until they figure out they aren't losing any weight. Then they try the next miracle diet FROM THE SAME PEOPLE and wonder why they don't lose any weight. Then they go for gastric bypass surgery without considering that maybe, just maybe, if they ate healthy food instead of eating McDonalds every day, they wouldn't have to go to such lengths. The fact is that selling better reef husbandry isn't sexy, but without it, you can lose your sandbed, cook your rocks, and juggle your skimmer as much as you want, and you'll never have a nice tank that consistently stays problem-free because you don't understand the basics.

[xtrstangx]

Originally posted by finneganswake
Well, if you don't like it, maybe next time you should think twice about calling people uneducated when you only have six months under your belt and can't think of any ideas of your own to counter mine.

This thread has moved from being helpful to you trying to be right and put others down. Quite frankly, your actions are childest at best now.

I'm done posting with this thread.

Good day and happy reefing.