Rock from a miracle mud setup - PO4 issue

[janco]

Anyway, I got some rock yesterday that came from a tank that used a Miracle Mud setup as its filtration (no skimmer). It stank when I picked it up, but I was told by the guy that sold me the rock that was normal for rock from this kind of setup. So I took a gamble when I bought it, figuring I could clean it up in a curing tank quickly. After all, it was cheap

After putting the rock in a fresh vat of saltwater and letting it cook overnite with a powerhead running, I get minimal (if any) ammonia, but my phosphates are high (1.0 ppm). Is this normal with this kind of rock? I assume it might be given the setup it was in previously. What do you guys think my best approach would be to bring the PO4 down? I don't have an extra skimmer I can use, but I do have a powerfilter that I can run carbon through. I also have a Phosban Reactor I could hook up. Would one of those work? How long do you think it'll take to put a dent in these levels of PO4 in 30 lbs of rock in 15 gallons of water?

I can see alot of water changes coming...

TIA,

jan

[AHBrit]

lots of time and water changes

all phosban will do is remove the phosphates from the Water, not the rock. Rock phosphates will continue to leach out for a long time.

Most people like to cure rock with a skimmer, but that is not essential if you stay on top of the water changes.

[SeanT]

For the record, leaving it overnight in acan is not "cooking" it.


Here is the process.

Originally posted by SeanT
The purpose of "cooking" your rocks is to have the bacteria consume all (or as much) organic material and PO4 stored on, and in, the rock as possible.

The first step to this is commitment.
You have to be willing to remove your rock from the tank.
It doesn't have to be all at once, but I feel if you are going to do this do it all. In stages if that is easier but make sure that all of it gets done.

The new environment you are creating for your rock is to take it from an algal driven to a bacterial driven system.
In order to do this, the rock needs to be in total darkness to retard and eventually kill the algae's on the rock and to give the bacteria time to do the job.

So basically you need tubs to hold the rock.

Equipment needed.
1. Dedication.
2. Tubs to cook rock in. And an equal amount of tubs to hold the rock during waterchanges.
3. A few powerheads.
4. Plenty of buckets.
5. A smug feeling of superiority that you are taking it to "the next level."
6. Saltwater, enough made up to follow the instructions below and to replenish your tank after removing rocks.
Here are the steps:

1. Get into your head and accept the fact you will be making lots of salt water if you aren't lucky enough to have access to filtered NSW.
2. Explain to significant other what is going on so they don't flip out. This process can take up to 2 months. Prepare them in advance so he/she can mark it on the calendar and that they won't nag about it until that date arrives.
3. Setup a tub(s) where the rock is to be cooked. Garages are great for this.
4. Make up enough water to fill tub(s) about halfway and around 5-7 buckets about 60% full.
5. Remove all the rock you want to cook at this stage. (The rock can be removed piece by piece until you are done.) I suggest shutting off the circulation beforehand to minimize dust storms.
6. Take the first piece of rock and dunk it, swish it, very, very well in the first bucket. Then do it again in the 2nd bucket, then the third.
7. Place rock in the tub.
8. Repeat steps 6 & 7 to every piece of rock you want to cook at this time. The reason I suggested 5-7 buckets of water will be evident quickly...as the water quickly turns brown.
9. Place powerhead(s) in the tub and plug in. Position at least one powerhead so that it agitates the surface of the water pretty well. This is to keep the water oxygenated. You can use an air pump for additional oxygenation if you wish. Only one powerhead per tub is needed. Remember the powerheads main responsibility is the oxygenation of the water.
10. Cover the tub. Remember, we want TOTAL darkness.
11. Empty out buckets, restart circulation on main tank.
12. Wait.
13. During the first couple of weeks it is recommended to do a swishing and dunking of the rocks twice a week.
What this entails is to make up enough water to fill up those buckets and the tub the rock is in.
First, lay out your empty tub(s) and fill buckets the same as before.
Then, uncover tub with the rock in it. Take a rock and swish it in the tub it's in to knock any easy to get off junk.
Then, swish it thru the 3 buckets again, and place in the empty tub..
Repeat for all your rocks.
Then empty the tub that all the rocks were cooking in, take it outside and rinse it out with a hose.
Place tub back where it was, fill with new saltwater, add rocks and powerheads, and cover.
Wait again until the next water change.
You will be utterly amazed at how much sand, silt, detritus is at the bottom of the tub and every bucket. It is amazing.
At times the stench was so strong I gagged.

How it works:

Some FAQ's.
When re-introducing the rock to my tank, a month or two from now, should I do that in parts to help minimize any cycling effect(s)...if there are any?
I never have. Really after a very short while, the ammonium cycle has been established. That's not what you're worry about though, it's the stored phosphates and that you have to wait it out.
When they are producing very little detritus - you'll know - then I would use them all at once.

Would running Carbon filtration and/or a PO4 reducing media help/hurry/hinder the process?
I wouldn't fool with it. You don't want the detritus to sit there long enough to rot, release water soluble P again. You want to take it out while it's still locked up in that bacterial detritus.

I would say that 85% of my exposed rock had Bryopsis (hair algae) covering it.
There isn't a single visible strand on any rocks my tank now.
Remember, the key is patience. Let this process run its course.

And a few last minute tidbits I remembered.
Your coralline will die back, recede etc.
My thoughts on this are GREAT!
Now my rock is more porous for additional pods, mysids, worms etc.
Coralline will grow back.
Throughout this process the sponges, and pods on my rock have not died off.
Every time I do a water change they are there and plentiful.

Taken from the "How to go Barebottom thread."

But remember, you do not need to run a barebottom tank to benefit from rock "cooking".

hth,
Sean

[janco]

Yup, understood the cooking thing, but overlooked the fact that phosphates will continue to leach out of the rock for some time. Oh well, guess I'll pick up some rock at the local lfs in the meantime.

Thanks for the reminders!

jan

[RichConley]

Sean, can we say Agenda?

[SeanT]

You may say what you wish.
However, I do not know why you would.
Spreading good, sound advice is helping...not an agenda.

[aubee91]

Originally posted by RichConley
Sean, can we say Agenda?

Is there another good way for janco to get the phosphates out of his rocks? Or is it not a problem to just put them in his tank like they are?

[RichConley]

Originally posted by SeanT
You may say what you wish.
However, I do not know why you would.
Spreading good, sound advice is helping...not an agenda.

Sean, I just say that because every post I see even remotely mentioning rock, you post that same post. Give it up. THere are plenty of rock cooking threads. You dont need to turn every thread into one.

[SeanT]

I have a compromise we can both live with.
I will continue to inform and you don't have to read.
Sound good?

[finneganswake]

Originally posted by RichConley
Sean, I just say that because every post I see even remotely mentioning rock, you post that same post. Give it up. THere are plenty of rock cooking threads. You dont need to turn every thread into one.

Amen! Is there anyone besides me who wonders why this fad is still around? Rock cooking is a desperate measure by people who need to find a way to justify going bare bottom after they get algae blooms. They're so emotionally invested in the idea that bare bottom is a miracle system that when something goes wrong, instead of admitting that all systems have faults, they say that it's still a perfect system, you just need to "cook your rocks!" I can't wait to see what the next step is when this doesn't work for some people--I'm going to suggest juggling your skimmer

[Weatherman]

Originally posted by finneganswake
Amen! Is there anyone besides me who wonders why this fad is still around?

It's still around because it's remarkably effective...

[fishman805]

Originally posted by RichConley
Sean, I just say that because every post I see even remotely mentioning rock, you post that same post. Give it up. THere are plenty of rock cooking threads. You dont need to turn every thread into one.

And everytime someone asks about treating a reef tank for ich, I also give the same advice... nothing wrong with that... I think Sean is doing a good thing... Please don't knock him for helping and turning this thread into something ugly....


Bob

[finneganswake]

Originally posted by Weatherman
It's still around because it's remarkably effective...

I'm not saying that it's not effective, just that it isn't necessary and it's very drastic. I've known dozens of people who have managed to keep algae-free tanks, bare bottom and DSB, and I have yet to personally know anyone who has needed to cook their rocks. I think that if your system needs its rocks cooked, there are major issues in its design or in the keeper's husbandry.

[dave11]

You could try running some rowaphos in your set up - this helped me to keep phos levels steady - will help whichever way you think is best to run a tank -
Dave

[fishman805]

FWIW, I had setup a 37gal tank as a reef tank several months ago.... Just Live sand and about 60 lbs of LR from Fosters & Smith... I set everything up and started the cycling process.... Long story short, I could not for the life of me get this thing to clean up... I went through all the cycling headaches with diatoms and then the algea took hold ... It got so bad that I decided to get drastic and tear it all down and start over... This time around I "cooked" the LR before placeing it back into the tank with fresh Live sand... Now I'm not saying that that was the only reason for it's current success, but I can tell you that it did make a huge difference in how the tank cycled and looks today...

I had no diatom bloom and virtually no algae... It's got several corals in it now and just two fish ( I'm not running a skimmer ). I only have to clean the glass every three days or so and that's just to remove the little bit of algae that dusts the glass... I'm running the same HOB Fuge that I had before and added a large canister filter that has a surface simmer on it's input side... My rock has got good coraline growth coming out on it now where before it was very very ugly hair algae....

In my case, I see the benefit of cooking LR..... And I'm running a DSB ( in the front and sides.... BB under and behind the LR )....

I've got a video of my 37gal tank on my website and also in my Reef Video thread ( last page I think....)



Bob

[aubee91]

Originally posted by finneganswake
I'm not saying that it's not effective, just that it isn't necessary and it's very drastic. I've known dozens of people who have managed to keep algae-free tanks, bare bottom and DSB, and I have yet to personally know anyone who has needed to cook their rocks. I think that if your system needs its rocks cooked, there are major issues in its design or in the keeper's husbandry.

So to get back on track here, aside from "cooking" his rocks, what should janco do to get the phosphates out of those rocks he just bought? What advice should SeanT be giving instead of "cook 'em" in this case? Or should janco just toss the rocks into his tank and not worry about it?

[RichConley]

Rock cooking works, yes, but you dont need to post a 2 page manual every time someone asks anything even remotely related to rock.

Heres the thing. Rock cooking is not a solution. It removes detritus from rocks, phosphate, etc. But it still comes down to "Are you removing more than your putting in"

Rock cooking can be as much a crutch as a cure. Many people are saying their tank is working, when its really just a situation of them starting with clean rock, and it taking a year to fill up, whereas people who start with dirty rock just see the issues sooner.

Yeah, rock cooking helps, and its a good thing, but it IS NOT THE SOLUTION.


rock cooking is the same as curing. both use extended periods of low/no light, and focus on removing crap from the rock. The cooking people just seem to be more drastic and do it for periods up to 6 months or so, which you are killing most of the stuff in the rock. No food means things die. Even good stuff. The bacteria is fine, but will be there in very low numbers.

[finneganswake]

Originally posted by fishman805
FWIW, I had setup a 37gal tank as a reef tank several months ago.... Just Live sand and about 60 lbs of LR from Fosters & Smith... I set everything up and started the cycling process.... Long story short, I could not for the life of me get this thing to clean up... I went through all the cycling headaches with diatoms and then the algea took hold ... It got so bad that I decided to get drastic and tear it all down and start over... This time around I "cooked" the LR before placeing it back into the tank with fresh Live sand... Now I'm not saying that that was the only reason for it's current success, but I can tell you that it did make a huge difference in how the tank cycled and looks today...

Again, I'm not saying it doesn't work, I'm just saying that it's not necessary, and I also think there is a major downside, which is that you're going to kill off any photosynthetic life on the rocks--goodbye ecosystem! I've seen posts with people claiming that this doesn't occur, but I'd really like an explanation of how something that depends on light for energy can go for months in total darkness without dying.

Now if you look at the post detailing the process, you'll notice the following--

I would say that 85% of my exposed rock had Bryopsis (hair algae) covering it.

This is a sign of a very poorly designed system--algae just doesn't cover this much rock without something going horribly wrong. I have doubts that this person will be able to sustain the tank for long without further bouts of rock cooking. This is something I've noticed in many threads about this subject--that people often have to do it numerous times. When this happens with ich "treatments," we ridicule the person who doesn't quarantine as being naive and uninformed.

[RichConley]

[i]

This is a sign of a very poorly designed system--algae just doesn't cover this much rock without something going horribly wrong. I have doubts that this person will be able to sustain the tank for long without further bouts of rock cooking. This is something I've noticed in many threads about this subject--that people often have to do it numerous times. When this happens with ich "treatments," we ridicule the person who doesn't quarantine as being naive and uninformed. [/B]

Exactly. Rock cooking gives you a clean slate. He still needs to fix his problems or he'll be back in the same place in a year.

[finneganswake]

Originally posted by aubee91
So to get back on track here, aside from "cooking" his rocks, what should janco do to get the phosphates out of those rocks he just bought? What advice should SeanT be giving instead of "cook 'em" in this case? Or should janco just toss the rocks into his tank and not worry about it?

Well, I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that the phosphate is a normal product of die-off from the rock being switched from one tank to another. This happens during curing, often with extremely high levels, and is nothing to freak out about. Use some kind of phosphate absorbing material and you'll be fine.

[janco]

Thanks, for that input. Yes, if there is something I can do fairly quickly to address the PO4 leeching out of the rock, it'd be great. I bought the rock because I recently got 17 frags I'd like to secure to bases, a number of which are Tyree LE's. But if I have to wait a month to use this rock in my main tank, I might as well leave the frags in their PVC cutoffs. I understand the cooking process and think it can be useful where warranted, but in my case I was looking for more of a quick fix.

FWIW, I've got a 6-7 inch substrate, and I'm not fond of the bare bottom look. I've no problem with folks who choose to go BB though, that's their personal preference. Anyway, right now I'm running high flow in the Brute can, and a Phosban Reactor. Of course, the reactor may not do me any good if PO4 is going to continue to leech out of the rock for a month or two.

Thanks again for the help,

jan

Originally posted by aubee91
So to get back on track here, aside from "cooking" his rocks, what should janco do to get the phosphates out of those rocks he just bought? What advice should SeanT be giving instead of "cook 'em" in this case? Or should janco just toss the rocks into his tank and not worry about it?

[fishman805]

Sometimes you just have to draw a picture of the process Rich... Invariably, the next question would have been: " So how do you "cook" LR..?" Sean just saved him the trouble of asking....

I believe that phosphates will always be an issue at one point or another and cooking just delays the inevitable... Phosban reactors and water changes and low bio-loading good skimmers and large fuges are all good resources to use to keep it in check or keep it close to undetectable...

Bob

[Weatherman]

We’re getting outside the scope of the question here…

The question is… How do you effectively reduce the phosphate load on rock, which has been, not is going to be placed in, a nutrient rich tank?

That’s all.

The simplest answer is: Cook the rock.

[fishman805]

Originally posted by Weatherman
We’re getting outside the scope of the question here…

The question is… How do you effectively reduce the phosphate load on rock, which has been, not is going to be placed in, a nutrient rich tank?

That’s all.

The simplest answer is: Cook the rock.

There ya go......

Bob

[finneganswake]

Originally posted by RichConley
Exactly. Rock cooking gives you a clean slate. He still needs to fix his problems or he'll be back in the same place in a year.

Boy, you really missed my point. My point is that the problem isn't in the rocks, it's in the design of the system and/or the husbandry of the same. Cooking his rocks isn't going to solve either. Well designed tanks with owners possessing good husbandry skills don't need rock cooking to survive.

Rock cooking came about in the following way:
My tank crashed-->it couldn't have been me, it must have been the sand-->removal of sand bed-->a couple of months with no problems-->oops, I'm getting problems with my bare bottom also-->it couldn't have been me, it must have been the rocks-->rock cooking-->a couple of months with no problems-->oops, I'm getting problems even after cooking my rocks-->it couldn't have been me, I must not have cooked the rocks enough-->more rock cooking-->etc, etc.

Notice that "It couldn't have been me" is a pretty consistent part of this nonsense?