Sulfur DeNITRIFIER DIY!!!

[Hormigaquatica]

Yeah, I think keeping it in cansiters would be a little more efficient- better exposure to the media. The last one I put together for a customer was run with refillable DI canisters in there, rather than just loose- his worked very well, and had the added bonus of reducing the chances of media moving into canisters down stream or blocking the tubing.

[PaintGuru]

Originally posted by Hormigaquatica
Yeah, I think keeping it in cansiters would be a little more efficient- better exposure to the media. The last one I put together for a customer was run with refillable DI canisters in there, rather than just loose- his worked very well, and had the added bonus of reducing the chances of media moving into canisters down stream or blocking the tubing.

Yeah I wonder if this would be a better way to go if you don't have the parts lying around. Just buy 3 DI canisters where the water flows from one end to another and just link them in series. It may not be pretty, but I would think it would do the job???

[mquinn]

I found a local source for sulfur - but it also contains bentonite clay (10%). I saw someone using bentonite in their formula for DIY rock w/ no ill affects. the wiki says nothing that looks really out of place in our underwater worlds. Anyone know _for certain_?

[dkuster]

OK, I put a unit together using three RO/DI housings each containing refillable DI canisters. My system is gravity fed.

Gravity feed from the display tank initially seemed to be more than adequate.

However, 7 days after the initial setup the water flow through the unit has slowed to a crawl. The only thing I can think of is that the media in each of the three canisters has settled and caused the flow to slow.

Gravity feed doesn't seem to be working anymore.

I'm going to switch to a pressure feed off of the main return pump. Hopefully this will work better...

[dkuster]

OK, this is getting frustrating!

I switched over from gravity feeding my DIY sulfur denitrator, to driving it via the return pump.

That increased the flow initially, but over the last few days it's slowed to crawl and will presumably eventually stop.

I'm using standard DI housings with the 1/4" semi-rigid tubing you normally see with RO/DI units. I'm also using refillable DI cartdriges to hold the media (sulfur, ARM calcium media, and carbon) and the canisters are filled to the top.

Why is the flow rate dropping???

I can only guess that the media is settling and providing more resistance to the water flow?

Should I only fill the canisters halfway?

Should I not use canisters at all?

Any help is appreciated.

[Hormigaquatica]

Hmm, not a problem that Ive run into. Are you sure there arent fines getting into your lines or something, clogging them up? Then again, if youre using the DI containers, that shouldnt be an issue.

I suppose the next thing I would try is cutting back on the amount of media in the canisters- like you mentioned, it may be packed a bit too tight.

Sorry Im not more help on this one- like I said, its not an issue Ive had so far. There are only so many things that can block the flow on these though.. .

[dkuster]

Ok, I did some debugging tonight, and found that it was indeed the DI canisters.

I'm sure there are several slightly different types. I got mine from 'the filterguys'. They have some white foam pieces near the top of the canister (where the water enters) and also a white foam 'donut' that fits around the screw on cap at the bottom.

These foam pieces weren't the problem. The problem was the screw-on cap on the bottom of the DI canister. It had triangular holes around the perimeter for the water to exit through. On the inside of the cap there is what appears to be a felt strip glued on which covers the triangular holes.

This felt clogged up really badly on the sulfur canister. The A.R.M. canister and carbon canister were OK. I'm guessing that the nitrate-eating bacteria clogged up the felt on the sulfer canister.

I removed the felt from the refillable canister caps on all three canisters just to be safe. I now have good flow through the sulfer denitrator.

Hopefully, the more pourous white foam pieces won't also clog eventually...

This seemed like a really good idea, but so far it's reminding me of all the trouble I had keeping a constant flow through my calcium reactor (back when I briefly ran one).

[Hormigaquatica]

That makes more sense to me then. I havent used that brand of canister before (I think most of mine are from buckeye field supply...), and just kinda assumed most were a similar design to the ones I had around- sorry about that. Hopefully that will clear up the issue for you.

[bgcook]

did you purchase the add on di units with refillabe canisters. i also just recently set up the same unit. i left the felt pad in, but i thing the unit works different than you are describing. i believe that water enters the unit around the refillable unit, then it goes up the unit through those triangular holes, through the media then out the exit tube.

the reason i ask this is i am wondering if the filter guys mislabeled the units i received. the way i described the unit working above is how they labeled my unit (they labeled input and output). first the water filled (partially) around the di container then it worked its way up the media and out the unit. if i have it backwards please let me know.

i have had my unit set up for one week and i would like to make a switch if needed. i use a kent marine system for my tank and i think the way you describe it working is how that one works.

[bgcook]

i sent an email to filter guys.

[dkuster]

Hey, no problem, and thanks for sharing your diy design.

If I continue to have problems I'll just buy some refillable canisters from Buckeye.

Originally posted by Hormigaquatica
That makes more sense to me then. I havent used that brand of canister before (I think most of mine are from buckeye field supply...), and just kinda assumed most were a similar design to the ones I had around- sorry about that. Hopefully that will clear up the issue for you.

[dkuster]

Yes, I purchased the 3 of the 'add-on DI units' from Filterguys. I think they were thirty something dollars each.

And yes, my mistake -- the water travels around the canister and then up through the triangular holes. (The way I described is completely backwards).

That also explains why it was the sulfur canister that clogged, as the felt on that one is the first thing the aquarium water hits. The weird thing is, when I was gravity feeding the unit I had a sponge prefilter on the feed line. That would have kept particulates out of the denitrator, yet it still clogged. Maybe it clogged with bacteria/algae growth?

In any case, the felt covering the triangular holes can become very restrictive. I think it's only an issue because we're using these canisters in an application they weren't designed for. If used as intended, after prefilters and an RO membrane, the input water would be very clean and the felt would not cause a problem.

Anyway, I ripped the felt off the inside of the canister cap on all three canisters. It's really not needed.

If I continue to have water flow problems I'll try buying some refillable canisters from Buckeye.

Good luck, and let us know how your unit is working out for you.

Originally posted by bgcook
did you purchase the add on di units with refillabe canisters. i also just recently set up the same unit. i left the felt pad in, but i thing the unit works different than you are describing. i believe that water enters the unit around the refillable unit, then it goes up the unit through those triangular holes, through the media then out the exit tube.

the reason i ask this is i am wondering if the filter guys mislabeled the units i received. the way i described the unit working above is how they labeled my unit (they labeled input and output). first the water filled (partially) around the di container then it worked its way up the media and out the unit. if i have it backwards please let me know.

i have had my unit set up for one week and i would like to make a switch if needed. i use a kent marine system for my tank and i think the way you describe it working is how that one works.

[bgcook]

got an email from filter guys the flow through the unit is bottom to top as you described it on your last post.

my unit is doing ok. i am out of town this week so my wife is taking care of the take. when i left the nitrates out of the unit had climbed to over 100. i slowed the drip to 30/min. my tank nitrates are at about 20. this will hopefully do the trick. i pm'ed randly holmes and he stated that the very high nitrates out of the effluent may be related to the test kit detecting nitrite as well (even worse). my wife reports the tank is doing well and all inhabitants are good. i will retest the tank friday night, at that time it will be about two weeks running.

i hope i don't regret taking that felt off. my thought was that since water was flowing up it would be less likely to get clogged.

additionally, the only thing i have noticed is that my water has a very slight cloudingness to it. i think it may be the argonite as i didn't rinse it since it appeared to be moist.

any thoughts??

[dkuster]

My unit has been up and running for a little over a week. I'm following Hormigaquatica's recommendations on setting the flow, which is basically to run the unit with no restriction on the flow for two weeks. Then, test the output water for nitrates. If the output is at or near zero, leave everything alone. Otherwise, close the valve and slow the flow a bit, and repeat.

I have to admit that this seems a bit counter-intuitive, since my flow seems rather high. It's a steady stream not a drip, and I wonder if anaerobic conditions will be able to establish in the sulfur canister.

Although it hasn't been two weeks, today I tested the reactor's efluent for nitrates and it read exactly the same as my tank water, somewhere between 25 and 50 ppm. I'm using a Salifert nitrate test kit, so it would seem that the Salifert kit reads only nitrate (not nitrite as well).

Your cloudiness is probably from the aragonite. I wouldn't worry about it unless it doesn't clear up in a day or two. I didn't rinse my media, but when I started it up I let it drain into a bucket until the efluent ran clear.

What sulfur media are you using? I got mine from midwest aquatics. They carry a high-purity sulfur pellet that is innoculated with the nitrate-eating bacteria. They are ball-bearing sized spheres that are supposed to resist clumping and compacting as the sulfur is consumed.

We shall see ;-)

Originally posted by bgcook
got an email from filter guys the flow through the unit is bottom to top as you described it on your last post.

my unit is doing ok. i am out of town this week so my wife is taking care of the take. when i left the nitrates out of the unit had climbed to over 100. i slowed the drip to 30/min. my tank nitrates are at about 20. this will hopefully do the trick. i pm'ed randly holmes and he stated that the very high nitrates out of the effluent may be related to the test kit detecting nitrite as well (even worse). my wife reports the tank is doing well and all inhabitants are good. i will retest the tank friday night, at that time it will be about two weeks running.

i hope i don't regret taking that felt off. my thought was that since water was flowing up it would be less likely to get clogged.

additionally, the only thing i have noticed is that my water has a very slight cloudingness to it. i think it may be the argonite as i didn't rinse it since it appeared to be moist.

any thoughts??

[dkuster]

Oh, and as far as regretting cutting out the felt -- I wouldn't worry. Your flow is so slow that any particulates should settle instead of being forced up through the media. And, you still have the foam rubber 'donut' that fit inside the cap (right?) to catch any particles.

Originally posted by bgcook
got an email from filter guys the flow through the unit is bottom to top as you described it on your last post.

my unit is doing ok. i am out of town this week so my wife is taking care of the take. when i left the nitrates out of the unit had climbed to over 100. i slowed the drip to 30/min. my tank nitrates are at about 20. this will hopefully do the trick. i pm'ed randly holmes and he stated that the very high nitrates out of the effluent may be related to the test kit detecting nitrite as well (even worse). my wife reports the tank is doing well and all inhabitants are good. i will retest the tank friday night, at that time it will be about two weeks running.

i hope i don't regret taking that felt off. my thought was that since water was flowing up it would be less likely to get clogged.

additionally, the only thing i have noticed is that my water has a very slight cloudingness to it. i think it may be the argonite as i didn't rinse it since it appeared to be moist.

any thoughts??

[bgcook]

i am using the media from marine depot.

CaribSea L.S.M. Live Sulfur Media 1 Gallon

i also bought the same company's argonite. i am probably going to rinse the argonite when i get back home. i don't think with my flow rate the argonite will clear up without help.

as far as the flow rate, i don't know what would be better. it seems that you want the media to be oxygen deprived (anaerobic), i just don't see how you can accomplish that with the refillable units which runs water through the sulfur. i thought Hormigaquatica's original design was using ro canisters so the water ran overtop of the sulfur. i would guess with this design the anaerobic portion would be deeper in the media which the flow probably wouldn't matter as much (almost acting like a deep sand bed with food). with the refillable di units we are pushing water through the media. the faster it goes the faster the oxygen rich water gets to the media. it seems with a fast flow rate you would need a larger volume of media. any thoughts on this would be great. i barely no what i am doing.

also with the sulfur media which is seeded with the nitrate reducing bacteria - this doesn't make sense to me either. the nitrate reducing bacteria are anaerobic, any exposure to oxygen would likely kill them. i don't think the anaerobic bacteria get seeding until the enviroment is anaerobic and it is almost a darwin's thing where only the fit survive. even with that said, i media i bought is supposedly seeded as well. i just figure it was false advertising.

what do you think Hormigaquatica?? also thanks for your help with the pm's.

[dkuster]

I think the flow-through canisters are a better way to go, as long as the flow is _slow_. But you're right, the original design doesn't use canisters.

Actually, it might be worth mixing the approaches. The aragonite and carbon should definitely be in canisters, but maybe the sulfur shouldn't (?).

Regarding the nitrate-eating bacteria innoculated sulfur -- I'm pretty sure the bacteria are in 'spore' or 'cyst' form. Basically, they are alive but dormant. They only become active when the right conditions are present (anaerobic) yet they are alive (and protected) when the conditions are bad (aerobic in their case).

[bgcook]

that makes sense. i hope those they decide to kick in soon or i might just have a nitrate producing reactor.

so what is the general thought regarding flow? what is recommended on the store bought nitrate sulfur reactors? perhaps i'll go to midwest website and see if i can find out.

thanks dkuster

[oct2274]

this is a cool thread, but it seriously needs to be moved to the DIY forums where people will see it. it is going to get lost here in the reef discussion forums. can the admins move this to the DIY forums so it gets the attention it deserves please

[dkuster]

Hi Greg,

I think you're looking for the highest flow rate that still produces an anaerobic condition inside the sulfer chamber.

Too high a flow rate will render part of the sulfur canister inactive because it will not be anaerobic.

Too low a flow rate will not maximize the nitrate reducing potential of your sulfur denitrator.

It's a balancing act.

Originally posted by bgcook
that makes sense. i hope those they decide to kick in soon or i might just have a nitrate producing reactor.

so what is the general thought regarding flow? what is recommended on the store bought nitrate sulfur reactors? perhaps i'll go to midwest website and see if i can find out.

thanks dkuster

[melev]

I've been following this thread for some time now, and am about to try it out myself. I'm letting you guys work out the kinks so it'll be easier for my own project.

[dkuster]

Originally posted by melev
I've been following this thread for some time now, and am about to try it out myself. I'm letting you guys work out the kinks so it'll be easier for my own project.

Glad to help out. ;-)

One thing I like about this 3-stage design is the carbon chamber. You don't see that on the commercial units, and it should help eliminate any 'rotten egg' smell.

One thing I'm anxious to test for is calcium in the efluent once the reactor is seeded and functioning. I've read several claims that a sulfur denitrator does not add any significant calcium and a calcium reactor is still required.

This doesn't make sense to me. If the pH of the water entering the aragonite chamber and the flow rates through it are similar, then I would think a sulfer denitrator would add as much calcium to the water as a CO2-driven calcium reactor.

[bgcook]

glad to hear people are interested in this thread. i will post my new values tomorrow night once i get back home. the unit will be up for about 2 weeks with a slow rate. curious to see if it works.

dkuster - i plan on increasing the flow rate once i either get rotten eggs or 0 nitrates. i'm glad you are doing the opposite that way we can see which seeds sooner. i looked on the midwest reactor website at their product instructions - it seems they go a slow rate of about 60 drops per minute. it does seem to me though that with a slow rate if you are not careful you may introduce HS and possibly harm the tank. the faster rate initially may be safer.

if this thread gets moved will they let us know?? i would hate for it to disappear on me.

[melev]

No matter where the thread is, if you are subscribed you'll get notification. I wouldn't have noticed it had it been in the DIY forum, so in this case I'm gald it was in Reef Discussion.

I think I'm going to order what I need to build one tonight. I have the sulfer media, carbon and ARM.

[Hormigaquatica]

Originally posted by bgcook

as far as the flow rate, i don't know what would be better. it seems that you want the media to be oxygen deprived (anaerobic), i just don't see how you can accomplish that with the refillable units which runs water through the sulfur. i thought Hormigaquatica's original design was using ro canisters so the water ran overtop of the sulfur. i would guess with this design the anaerobic portion would be deeper in the media which the flow probably wouldn't matter as much (almost acting like a deep sand bed with food). with the refillable di units we are pushing water through the media. the faster it goes the faster the oxygen rich water gets to the media. it seems with a fast flow rate you would need a larger volume of media.

The way Im looking at it, youre basically trying to get the water to move slowly enough that the first 'layers' of bacteria in the media are removing most of the oxygen, allowing for hypoxic conditions as the water moves through the chamber. So in some sense, yes, its the same kind of logic as using a deep sand bed in that youre going to have a few different layers of microbes- some aerobic, and some anaerobic. The sulfur comes into play in that its another 'food source' to help fuel the growth of anaerobic bacteria.

That said, you mentioned the idea of more sulfur being beneficial as opposed to less. I do agree with you on that one- if you increase the volume of sulfur the water is moving over, there will be more media under anaerobic conditions, which should make it more efficient at removing nitrates. That might allow you to move a bit more water through it, rather than relying on a slow flow rate to 'drive out' the oxygen. Maybe someone is willing to try adding a 2nd sulfur canister on theirs? Ive not tried it myself...

Originally posted by dkuster

I think you're looking for the highest flow rate that still produces an anaerobic condition inside the sulfer chamber.

Too high a flow rate will render part of the sulfur canister inactive because it will not be anaerobic.

Too low a flow rate will not maximize the nitrate reducing potential of your sulfur denitrator.

It's a balancing act.

I think youve hit it right on the head. Thats my thinking on the whole thing too.

Ive only done a handful of these machines, so Im really glad to see the interest in them. Hope Ive not overlooked anything that crashes your tanks If you can come up with variations on these things, or improvements, Id love to hear more of them too.