"Plumbing My New System - Need Help" - Pics Included

[Bemmer]

Wow, my palms are sweating as I type this new large tank system set up. I am very excited about sharing what I have done so far with my new system. A little bit of history about what I have been doing for the last few months. My husband, Dave and I decided to go all out and do two in-wall tanks and a large fish room with a frag tank and refugium to help support the total system. The main tank is 60x36x24 (225g) and the seahorse tank is 30x12 1/2x24 (40g). They are both glass with Starphire front panels. I have an acrylic sump that is 48x30x17 divided into two chambers; one for the Euro-Reef RC500 skimmer and all the drain hoses and the other is for the return chamber. The system also runs a 36x24x17 grow out frag tank and a 36x234x13 refugium, both are made of acrylic and drain back into the sump.

The lights on the main tank are three MH bulbs (2-250W 10K XM's and 1-400W XM) with three Luminarc III's, which are vented into the duct work above the tank. These are supplimented by 5-60" URI Super Blue Actinics (three in front and two in back of the LIII's). The MH are run off of Icecap ballasts and the VHO's are off of the 660 Icecap ballasts. There will be three PFO moon lights as well. The seahorse tank will have a PFO Pendant fixture with a 175W 10K XM bulb and 2-28w true actinics.

The water flow on the main tank, which will be primarily an SPS tank, will be provided by a Seq. Dart on two 1" returns with the new WavySea wavemotion, two 6100's Tunzes and a closed loop using a 4-way OM plumbed with a Seq. Barracuda. The seahorse tank will "tee" off the Seq. Dart with a 1/2" seaswirl.

Okay, I think that gives a basic overview of the system. I am sure I left a few things out but this is a work in progress. Anyway, I am coming to you all with a plumbing question. I have included pictures to give you some insight into the plumbing saga that I have been working through for the past 60 days (weekends mostly since I am a mom with two kids)







The question is what pump should I use to plumb between the sump and the frag tank that sits 6 feet up on a stand? Also, the distance between the sump and the frag tank stand is 5 feet across the room. The frag tank has two bulkheads (1 1/2" and 1") in the overflow.

Here are a couple of pictures to help visualize.





Thank you for your input. I look forward to a good discussion as I proceed with this project. Of which, I would never have come to realize if I had not had such a supportive...and handy husband a.ka. carpenter and electrician.

Rebecca

[Bemmer]

Anyone have any thoughts on this setup or the pump I should use. I would really like to get your input.

Thanks

[Bemmer]

Hi All,
Thought I would bring this back to the surface since I did not get any feedback as of yet. I would be happy to go into more detail on the overall system but right now I am looking for some help with the pump to the frag tank.

I am currently considering another Seq. Dart coming from the sump to the frag tank. Why? Because I would like to run 2" pipe from the pump up to the frag tank to reduce the head pressure. Also, I would like to end up with about 800-1000 gph of flow in the tank. The tank is about 55 gallons (36 x 24 x 17)

I am very bad with calculations but perhaps someone out there can help me. I will have two bulkhead drains (1" and 1 1/2") in the overflow to move the water out of the frag tank. Is 800-1000 gph too much water in the tank? The return water flow will be supplemented with powerheads inside the frag tank. BTW, the frags will be mostly SPS corals.

I am considering one of two ways to output the water into the frag tank. The first option is to reduce the 2" down to 1" and attach a 1" seaswirl on the return pipe. The second is to "Tee" the 2" pvc near the top of the frag tank and split it into two 1" loc-line pipes with two nozzles on each loc-line pipe. That will give me four 1/2" nozzles pushing water into the tank.

Please poke holes into these options or give me a third option to consider...and a pump recommendation.

Thanks so much for your input.

Rebecca

[Double-J]

could try teeing off the the dart you already have. let the powerheads do all the work, you'll save some money in electricity (150w) plus don't have to buy another pump. I have mine this way, Have a gate valve on the main display and gate on the prop tank. i would say try to aim for 6x turnover in both tanks then make up the rest with powerheads jmo

by the way awesome looking tank and room, looks like it is almost there Good luck

[Double-J]

here is a photo of what i'm talking about, my tank is only a 125 though ( for now) the prop tank is on the right and is not in the picture but you get the idea I have 2" to the dart then 1.5 to both tank and prop along with it plumbed to a uv and another valve for thats not in use for a chiller when I get one. With this setup I'll probably have to upgrade to a more powerfull pump but for now i'm getting great flow to both

[ricks]

Rebecca,

My vote is use the 1" seaswirl I have 4 on my 500 and love them. I angle cut a 1" 45 to direct the flow downward. Are those y check valves to stop backflow that your sump won't take???? If so I don't see a floor drain. You will need a drain at some time. As these valves fail. They are not designed for reef type tanks. I had 2 on my first tank 15 years ago and it turned out to be a mess. Also if you plumb to low when they fail. Your corals will be high and dry with halides cooking them until you get home.... Unless you have automatic back up generator. ....

just my .2cents

[LoneStarSA]

AWESOME! Can't wait to see this one build up. Post some photos of how the tanks look on the other side of the wall

[Bemmer]

Originally posted by tinytool
could try teeing off the the dart you already have. let the powerheads do all the work, you'll save some money in electricity (150w) plus don't have to buy another pump. I have mine this way, Have a gate valve on the main display and gate on the prop tank. i would say try to aim for 6x turnover in both tanks then make up the rest with powerheads jmo

by the way awesome looking tank and room, looks like it is almost there Good luck

Hi...aah Tiny aah tool. I have a little trouble typing out your name, please understand it is nothing personal. That is just too funny a name.

Currently, the Dart that is already on the sump is plumbed for two 1" Wavysea wavemotions as returns to the main tank AND to a 1/2" Seaswirl to the seahorse tank. I don't think the Dart could handle a fourth tee off across the room and up 6 feet. I already thought about it though.

Originally posted by tinytool
here is a photo of what i'm talking about, my tank is only a 125 though ( for now) the prop tank is on the right and is not in the picture but you get the idea I have 2" to the dart then 1.5 to both tank and prop along with it plumbed to a uv and another valve for thats not in use for a chiller when I get one. With this setup I'll probably have to upgrade to a more powerfull pump but for now i'm getting great flow to both

You're like me, you love those gate valves and unions. What are the black bands that you have around the vertical PVC pipes? Are those clamps to attach the PVC to the wall?

Also, can you tell me why you have the rubber link mats around your main tank? I am curious about that.

Thanks for your reply and compliment on the setup.

[Bemmer]

Originally posted by ricks
Rebecca,

My vote is use the 1" seaswirl I have 4 on my 500 and love them. I angle cut a 1" 45 to direct the flow downward. Are those y check valves to stop backflow that your sump won't take???? If so I don't see a floor drain. You will need a drain at some time. As these valves fail. They are not designed for reef type tanks. I had 2 on my first tank 15 years ago and it turned out to be a mess. Also if you plumb to low when they fail. Your corals will be high and dry with halides cooking them until you get home.... Unless you have automatic back up generator. ....

just my .2cents

Hi Ricks,
Thanks for your vote on the 1" Seaswirl. Good idea on the directional flow too.

Yes, those are the Swiss Made Wye Check Valves. The sump capacity can handle the backflow but I thought I would add the extra security. I know, though, I read alot on RC about the check valves and what level of security they can give to a person. But I figured mine are right out in the open for me to see on a regular basis and the grey side top screws off easily so they are easy to monitor and keep clean. I decide to give myself the added safety feature, in addition to a syphon break hole in the Wavyseas.

Also, if all else fails I had an emergency overflow drain put into the sump about 2" from the top of the tank. If the water rose that high in the sump, the drain hole will drain into the sink drain in the bathroom on the other side of the wall. Hope I never need to use it.

Thanks for your .02. All take .05 or .10 cent feedback if you are offering that too.


LoneStarSA
Thanks for the compliment. I hope to have some pictures of the front of the plumbing by this weekend. The front actually looks pretty cool too with the plumbing from the 4-way OM running along the bottom of the tank.

[Bemmer]

For anyone that wants to work out the head pressure for me...because it is something you engineers like to do , I have listed the breakdown of how I envision the plumbing to and from the pump coming from the sump to the frag tank. Again, I would love to hear from you engineer and math gurus out there that like to calculate head pressure.

The layout and breakdown of the pipes and fittings for the plumbing between the sump and the frag tank are as follows. 1 1/2" union - 1 qty; 1 1/2" 90 elbow - 1 qty; 1 1/2 to 2" bushing - 2qty; 2" MPT - 4 qty; 2" true union ball valve (threaded) - 2qty; 2" horizontal PVC - 8 feet; 1 1/2 MPT - 1qty; 2" 90 elbow - 2; 2" vertical PVC - 7 feet. (not including output options into the tank - see below)
Please check the pictures in the first post for visual reference...
From the sump: 1 1/2" union - 1 1/2" 90 elbow - 1 1/2 to 2" bushing - 2" male threaded adapter (MPT) - 2" true union ball valve (threaded) - 2" MPT - 3' horizontal PVC (third picture-back corner near the 4x4 leg and back wall). Pump placement (possible Seq. Dart) from pump - 1 1/2 MPT - 1 1/2 to 2" bushing - 2" MPT - 2" true union ball valve (threaded) - 2" MPT - 2" 90 elbow (from pump to elbow is 20" vertical) - 5' horizontal PVC (fourth picture near the reef crystals bucket) - 2" union - 2" 90 elbow pointing up - 5' vertical to top of frag tank (fifth picture).

What I mean by output options, I am considering one of two ways to output the water into the frag tank. The first option is to reduce the 2" down to 1" on the backside of the frag tank and attach a 1" seaswirl on the return pipe. The second is to "Tee" the 2" pvc near the top of the frag tank and split it into two 1" loc-line pipes with two nozzles on each loc-line pipe. That will give me four 1/2" nozzles pushing water into the tank.

Thanks again for taking the time to read this thread.

[Kimo]

Rebecca -

Wow, ambitious project. I'm really impressed.

[Bemmer]

Come by and check it out yourself, Kimo. BTW, I still have your frag plugs. If you don't pick them up soon...they are mine.

[Kimo]

Hehe yah I will try to get out there, but it's tough to get away with the new baby.

Jamie

[melev]

Okay, all caught up.

The Sequence Dart is not a pressure rated pump. I have a feeling you'll be good to get 1000gph out of it, once you add the distance from the pump to the frag tank. I do have an idea you might consider...

If you have a large enough pipe from the sump going across the room (2"?), then reduce the inlet going into the dart at 1.5". Now you just have to pump straight up 6' high to the frag tank. The only issue that comes to mind is the pump might starve if the water does n't get enough water via the horizontal pipe. A 3" pipe would be better, I'm sure. Putting Seaswirls on the output side will add extra head pressure that the Dart simply isn't equipped to deal with, reducing the flow again.

Your fish room looks awesome. Much cleaner than I expected mentally from our previous conversations.

It doesn't appear like you have much head room when tinkering in the frag tank, or am I wrong?

Btw, both of those tanks appear to not be fully supported. Is there wood and foam under the entire tank? Looking at the left corner, it seems to be floating just a tad.

[Bemmer]

Originally posted by melev
Okay, all caught up.

The Sequence Dart is not a pressure rated pump. I have a feeling you'll be good to get 1000gph out of it, once you add the distance from the pump to the frag tank. I do have an idea you might consider...

If you have a large enough pipe from the sump going across the room (2"?), then reduce the inlet going into the dart at 1.5". Now you just have to pump straight up 6' high to the frag tank. The only issue that comes to mind is the pump might starve if the water does n't get enough water via the horizontal pipe. A 3" pipe would be better, I'm sure. Putting Seaswirls on the output side will add extra head pressure that the Dart simply isn't equipped to deal with, reducing the flow again.

Hi Marc,
Are you saying that I should place the Dart next to the frag/refugium stand and pull the water to the pump from 5'+ feet across the room? The output at the frag tank is still up in the air since I am willing to use powerheads in the frag tank. If I don't use the Dart, since it is not pressure rated, what about the PanWorld or a Seq. Tarpin (not sure if either is pressure rated). What ever pump I decide to go with I want to be able to run 2" pvc to and from the pump.

Your fish room looks awesome. Much cleaner than I expected mentally from our previous conversations.

It doesn't appear like you have much head room when tinkering in the frag tank, or am I wrong?

Btw, both of those tanks appear to not be fully supported. Is there wood and foam under the entire tank? Looking at the left corner, it seems to be floating just a tad.

Surprised you on that setup, ya. Let me tell you I went through a lot of iterations to come up with that plumbing. But I think it should work...at least I hope.

I actually have 15" from the top of the tank to the ceiling. I am going to use T5 actinics and 2-250W 10K MH pendants to light the frag tank. I using the lights on my 120g. They adjust so I can raise them when I need to get into the tank. I can also access the frag tank from all sides too.

Both tanks are off the wood and foam by 3/4". Would you brace that? I had posted the question on RC a while back and everyone said that it should be okay. Your thoughts?

R-

[melev]

Considering that the fish room will warm up when the lights are on, you may find that you need some fans to keep you cool when working in the frag tank. That 15" area will be rather toasty, even with vent fans and hopefullly an A/C unit cooling that room.

I would support the entire tank. You can add a single 1x6 on the end of each platform to get the final 3/4" supported. Now's the time to do it, not later after something comes up.

Yes, I was suggesting drawing the water 5' horizontally. I don't know if it will work, to be perfectly honest. I do know that the water in the sump will be higher than that pipe, and thus it will fill that pipe easily. How the pump will do under those circumstances is purely a guess on my part, and one of the reasons I was thinking it might be better with a 3" pipe full of water. I would reduce the intake of the Dart to 1.5" with a bushing, as it would be sucking in 1.5" of water from a 2" pipe then - purely a guess that might work, or might not. If it doesn't, then the pump needs to be placed by the sump and push it all the way to the tanks. I do know Iwaki pumps come pressure-rated, and perhaps some higher end Sequence pumps do as well.

[Bemmer]

The heat inside the Luminarc III's will be vented out of the room, which I was thinking would generate most of my heat. Therefore, I was not planning on getting an a/c unit for the fish room. I will have fans over the sump and a couple of fans on the frag tank as well. I was planning on using a box fan for when I am working in the room. Also, the fish room and the tanks are set up in the basement, which generally does stay cooler than the rest of the house. If need be, I will get a chiller. I already put in a bleeder line off the Barracuda, which is running the closed loop for a chiller. I could put a bleeder line off the Dart, which is running the return lines into the tank, if that makes more sense? I might do that anyway, just because there is always something that could be added.

Thanks for pointing out the space under the frag and refugium. I will put a piece of lumber under each tank to fully support the entire area of the tanks.

I think I am going to place the pump closer to the sump and use a pressure rated pump to run the long horizontal and vertical pvc to the frag tank. I can increase the PVC pipe from the sump hole to 2" but I really can't do 3" to the pump.

[Bemmer]

We are starting to work on the lighting setup and I have a question about the placement of the ballasts. We have a total of five ballasts being mounted to the lighting rack above the tank next to the Luminarc reflectors. All are Icecap: 2- 660 for the VHO's, 2 - for the 250w MH and 1 for the 400w MH. They are 16" from the surface of the water. We are also going to place a couple of fans in the lighting rack to keep that area cool because I understand the ballasts can generate some heat. Is there an issue with setting these up in the lighting rack? They can be moved but I would rather not, if possible.





Thanks for your feedback

Rebecca

[melev]

Personally, I'd prefer to have a solid board for them to sit upon. That way there is no way water can splash upward and hit them, and they will be easy to remove for maintenance or repair. Since the heat rises straight up, I'd prefer to have the ballasts off to the side a bit, if possible.

They look great where they are though.

Working in a hot fishroom may be quite uncomfortable. Remember humidity will be higher in there. I look forward to seeing how it all works out over the next few months, so you can post updates about how you feel about everything.

[Bemmer]

Marc,
We are going to mount fans in the lighting rack on the right and left side were the square metal frames are. That should help with the heat issue the ballasts may cause. No room to mount the four front ballasts off to the sides.

I started gluing the plumbing tonight. I thought it was rather nerve racking actually. It took much longer than I thought and that was just to plumb one pump. Gluing this plumbing is going to take a good week of evenings. ;-)

The lights are up in both the main tank and the seahorse tank. I hope to post new pictures by next week...after the gluing is completed on the plumbing.

[melev]

Do a really good job as you glue each joint. Be completely happy with each one, making sure that it looks to be a solid joint. Hold them together 15 to 20 seconds because it will start to quietly flow out of the fitting a bit if you don't. Any glue you see coming out of the joint should be rubbed all the way around the fitting, creating a glue fillet that should look smooth and consistent, not unlike how caulk it applied around the edge of a bathtub area.

Hopefully you'll have no leaks and nothing to redo later.

[Bemmer]

Marc,
Thanks for the advice on gluing the plumbing. So, I use my finger to create the glue fillet with the excess glue that comes out of the joint? That is good to know.

I decided to purchase the PanWorld 200PS since it is pressure rated. It should cover my gph flow and then some. I am also going to add a "T" line right off the pump incase I want to add a reactor for carbon or phosban in the future. I am also going to run it with the 1" seaswirl device in the frag tank. Thanks again for your advice and help with this one.

http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merch..._Code=Panworld

I will keep you posted with more pictures once the plumbing is done.

R-

[Scottm]

Rebecca,

Looks like a good solution with the pressure rated panworld pump. Initially it looked like you were trying to overcome the distance/head obstacle with volume - which will only work to a point. The pressure rated pump will work much better for this application.

[Bemmer]

Scott,
Thanks for your input. I think with the PanWorld and the 2" pipe running to and from the pump, I should be more than good on the gph into the frag tank.

Rebecca

[melev]

Let us know how it does when you finally get it all running. That is when the proof will be fully established.

This is a heck of a project.