European skimmers. What is it with them??

[dgasmd]

I recently becamse very interested in a Deltec skimmer because of their good reputation among people that use them. So, I got curious and started to do some research. I asked a few european reefers abou it and what else is considered the elite skimmer in europe since they seem o be ahead of us in some equipment. Please, don't get all bent out of shape over this

Turns out Deltec is not even considered elite there. Seems like Grotech, H&S, and Schurams are the best there is and they are actually half to 1/3 the cost to a comparable Deltec unit. So, I went ot all their sites and looked at them to see what was obviously so different that would make these things so powerfull. Well, some have some patented needle wheel to chop the air, some have some silencer to make then quieter, and some said nothing i the sites I saw. To the untrained eye, they all look like different euroreef versions regardless of who copy what.

The one thing that seems common to all of them is that they all use recirculating pumps, the pumps are small pumps like the eheim, their diameter seem to be bigger for comparable skimmers, and they are all very energy efficient. Even the larger model of any of them doesn't consume 1/2 what my iwaki 100 consumes in electricity. Not a single skimmer is powered by large pumps like the becketts here. I don't know if that is due to lack of availability of those pumps (I will venture to say I highly doubt it) or just trying to avoid big electricity consuming equipment.

So, does anyone have any insights as to what makes these skimmers so good? Please, don't just say "they are better". Give me the why I like to say I am from MO (I couldn't be fro a further place in reality), so "show me".

[Morbo]

I'd love to see some links so I could see some.

Maybe i could make my own opinion?

But seriously, links would be nice.

[T Sandman]

Well, recirculating tend to keep the junk in suspension longer. I think that a wider reaction chamber would reduce turbulence within reason.

The pictures i've seen of becketts are usually pretty impressive, but the eductors themselves are in my opinion not efficient. Which is why they have to be powered by such a huge pump.

So what's better? More volume and power consumption, or less volume with more dwell and less overall power useage.

[nysbadmk8]

electric is extreamly expensive overseas, so this pretty much forces their hand are more energy efficent models, which isnt a bad thing. Kinda like why their cars are extreamly small compared to our big v-8's.

[dgasmd]

OK, so here are a few. Most don't show much detail, so it is hard to tell from looking at them as to what is so different or good.

http://www.schuran.com/seawater/hobby_abschaeumer.html
http://www.sewatec.de/default.php/cPath/28_159_79
http://www.carmenschwemmer.com/
http://www.hs-aquaristik.de/

They are pretty crude and some are not in english, so you'll have to surf through them.

[auckland]

having used all the german skimmers, i would say that deltec is the best.
well made and easy to use. and they dont over rate there skimmers.
if you compare the skimmers it terms of size then the deltec is not bad priced, but if you go by other skimmer ratings by each manufacture then the deltec does look expensive as they over rate there skimmers'

[Nanook]

The Schuran AQ line uses a big, beefy pump...I think it was over 400 watts if I remember from emailing back and forth with them.


Dave

[dgasmd]

Originally posted by auckland
having used all the german skimmers, i would say that deltec is the best.

Thanks for the insight. Now, how is the grotech and deltec different from each other? Heck, how are they different from a euroreef for that matter? Seems like all 3 use smaller pumps and have an air intake at the pump intake, chop the air, and pump it inside the chamber. Am I missing some mistery piece here??

It is hard for me to compare and grasp the difference since all I have ever used is a large becket skimmer.

Rather than paying tons of money for one of them, I am seriously considering getting some 12" acrylic at about 4' and just plug in 6 sedra 9000 at the bottom. Can't possibly see how that would not handle 1000g easy. It is going to go for about $1200 in parts alone, but it is not the $4000 deltec or the $1800 grotech.

[alexmarto]

Before i bought my H&S i searched a lot about deltecs. I've seen both and i coudn't see the diference between them.
Most germans prefer H&S, but in britain deltecs take the lead.
I don't know who is best and why, for me they look exactly the same.

Here is mine:

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=283858

manklit

[dgasmd]

I know Deltec has a needle wheel impeller as does the euroreefs. Do the pumps in the grotech and H&S have special impellers to make the bubbles or do they just use standard pumps??

[alexmarto]

Yes, H&S has needle wheels too. Don't know about grothecs but i think they use a diferent system.

manklit

[grim]

Ok, maybe you realize this and I'm restating the obvious, but I'd thought I'd throw it out just in case. Overseas typically use a higher voltage (220v, 230v), so amperage ratings will be halved because of the voltage doubling. If you're looking at watts, it'll be similar, but if you look at amperage, it'll look deceivingly more efficient. I tried searching the web for deltec or shuran consumption info, but I don't know the german equivalents of the words I'm looking for to find the numbers.. But yes, needle wheel skimmers typically consume much less power, especially multi-pump recirc needle wheels. I love the idea of multipump recirc skimmers, they seem to be the ideal solution to the problem, even when using venturi (especially beckett) style skimmers).

jb

[NAGA]

I know I will be testing the parts supply end of things very soon. I bought a AP1004 overseas that I should have in about a week. I know I need the cleaning head attachment when I get the skimmer. I am just interested in the attachment/head unit and not the pumps/timers etc. I am also going to get a couple of extra pump parts, like the needlewheel impellers.

I have met one of Deltecdirect reps. recently and I know that I am comfortable with the straight shooting information he provides. The distributor down in FL. I haven't met and have yet to get a real feel for things. I will certainly report my experiences with Deltec.

[NAGA]

I am surprised nobody has mentioned the Sanders/Helgoland.
I know they are around 4k/5k for the big ones that are rated for 1500g tanks.

When I get the AP1004 here I will post up some pics. I know it's about 40" tall and uses something like a 15" diameter tube. It has 4 Eheim pumps on it to churn things up.

[bluereefs]

If I remember corectly,euroreef was a copy of H&S skimmer,in the begining they work together but later they separate(friendly).
Buying euroreef is similar to buying H&S skimmer.
Aqua medic have also nice big skimmer for cheap,relative,prices.Their model twin is high almost 2 metter ,have two needlle wheel pump rated for 3500 lit/hour each and cost only around 800-900$

[dattack]

Originally posted by NAGA
I am surprised nobody has mentioned the Sanders/Helgoland.
I know they are around 4k/5k for the big ones that are rated for 1500g tanks.

When I get the AP1004 here I will post up some pics. I know it's about 40" tall and uses something like a 15" diameter tube. It has 4 Eheim pumps on it to churn things up.

Any link or pics?

[Nanook]

http://qualitymarineusa.com/commercial/skimmers.html

[dattack]

Originally posted by Nanook
http://qualitymarineusa.com/commercial/skimmers.html

Hmm. Thanks. I saw that at their location but I am not sure what Naga means by 4 eheim pumps. It's run on one large pump instead from the pics.

[dgasmd]

When he said 4 eheims he was refering to the Deltec unit.
Sander are big and bulky and require large pumps. In a sense no different than a RK2 or a large custom multi beckett head skimmer.
I was refering originally to the skimmers that have smaller low electricity consumption pumps like the others above.
Deltec seems like a quality product, but it is way overpriced. Money is not everything. Just because it costs a lot of money doesn't mean is the best. If you can device something that takes out 1 g of water out of a hole for $300 it may be good. If you replace it for something that takes out 1.2 g but costs $3000, then the replacement is crap because it cost you 10 times more for 20% extra. Just because it is big, loud, expensive, and uses tons of electricity doesn't mean it is better.

[NAGA]

Yes,

dgasmd is correct ..........I was referring to the Deltecs and the 4 pumps. I bought my AP1004 from Germany and it was considerably cheaper than what the new distributor is charging for them here($4000) My concern here is the parts availability and I am leary of what response I get from the distributors in FL. now. A lot of talk has been done but, we are still waiting on the website to go up well over a month past when it was originally suppose to go up. The last I heard it was last month around the 26th. I think they will have a hard time if they cannot deliver the parts when people spend that kind of money. What I am not going to tolerate however, is that it is going to take weeks to get a part when I spent say $2000 more than what a Euroreef cost me. Perhaps I may have my brother get the parts over in Germany if I get a lot of smoke and mirrors...............it will probably be cheaper anyway. Like I said before...........we shall wait and see what happens when I place my order and I will let everyone know how it's handled.

So the guy (aquariumsolutions aka Robert Dalton) is going to carry the H&S???? that is interesting.................from what I can read about he H&S is that they don't make a skimmer that is rated over 2000Liters. Am I wrong?? I think they too are fairly pricey but, are they half of what the Deltecs are???

The Sanders skimmer is indeed in the same size category of the RK2 but, the performance/quality is not the same. I saw a Helgoland years ago and remember that thing was built like a tank. I recently saw many of the RK2's up at "that fish place" and was not impressed with the quality of the construction. Very rough looking IMO. They did have many different sizes up there to look at and I think they will all be running BTEOM. Look forward to seeing the performance.

I would have to say that my "Dream Skimmer" is a Sanders Helgoland 500.

[TiTAN]

Hey Guys,

I did not read eveything in the post so I might be saying what has already been said.




Quote from Website "For Aquariums up to:
Heavy Stocking 4500 Ltrs (1000 gals)
Normal Stocking 6000 Ltrs (1333 gals)
"
The Above skimmer is a Deltec 1004 it is a 12" Diameter or 10", not sure exactly with 4 eheim pumps with the "speacial" pin wheel which is essentially a impellar drilled with a couple of holes(it is not exactly that but you get the Idea) and the air is sucked in on the suction side and chopped up on the way in.

To replicate this could be rather easy just get a 6"+ diameter tubing and attach 4 maxijets 1200 to it with a modded impellar and one or maybe two of them sucking the water from the sump and the other two just recirculating the water with the "speacial" impellars and whallah you have a deltec that only uses 80W and is extremely effiecient in waste removal and power consumption.

Deltec are very well made but very simple!

HTH if you have any questions on the above skimmer let me know and I can try to help where I can.

TiTAN

[dgasmd]

Originally posted by NAGA

So the guy (aquariumsolutions aka Robert Dalton) is going to carry the H&S???? that is interesting.................from what I can read about he H&S is that they don't make a skimmer that is rated over 2000Liters. Am I wrong?? I think they too are fairly pricey but, are they half of what the Deltecs are???

NAGA:

I don't know if that is his name, but I spoke with someone at aquarium solutions this past weekend and he did endeed confirmed to me they are importing the H&S. They are in the process right now of placing their first order, which I believe is going to include some for their own use. He said one of the huge advantages ot them is that when they place an order it ships the same day, not weeks or months later. They do make much bigger skimmers than for 2000L. Given my plans for my next system after I move, I would not get anything that would not handle confortably with a lot of room to spare a 2000g heavily stocked system. I am thinking 18" diameter, 4-5' high, and 6 pumps to start. Maybe 8 actually.

This wouldn't be so complicated for someone that can work with acrylic to do. You could even use the sedra 9000 that are readily available here with needle wheel impellers.

TITAN:
Can you post a picture of the impeller of the deltec eheim pump?

[NAGA]

The diameter tube is not a 12" or a 10" it's actually a 15" from what I measured off of the one that 1diverdown has in PA.

It's pretty beefy and when I turn it on dgasmd (Alberto) you are welcome to come down and take a look for yourself if you like.
And for that matter my door is always open for anyone that wants to stop by.

[dgasmd]

NAGA:

I will take you up in the offer.

[alexmarto]

Mine H&S is rated for 2200L and there are models comercialy available with more than two pumps.

This H&S is running a 10000L (2650gal) tank




And here is the tank:




The deltec impellor:




manklit