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#1
09/11/2004, 10:49 PM
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LFS keeping inverts at 1.020...is this good?
I went to one LFS the other day for shrimp. I got 2 peppermint and a skunk/cleaner. I took them home, did a 20min drip acclimation, checked the temp...all seemed ok...so I put them in. They all were dead within a few hours. Odd. Im used to crabs and shrimp being so durable that one could almost dump them in without any acclimation and they do fine. I have other crabs and shrimp in the tank to begin with...so it to have them die like that seems cruddy.
I went back today to get them replaced. The LFS has a 24hour policy, thank god. Well, after getting the shrimp, I also got a few other critters from the system that the shrimp were in as well as another. Then I chatted for a bit to figure out what they thought, and to get a bearing on how they kept their livestock. As it turns out, the system I usually buy from is kept at 1.024 (salinity)...but the system I bought the shrimp in was kept at 1.020.....HUH?!?!? Isnt that a little low? This was the system that they are keeping all their corals and some critters in...and the one I usually buy from is 1.024...and all critters. I commented on them having such a low salinity...and that was prolly the reason in my mind that they freaked out and died so quickly...as my salinity is kept at 1.025. Well, I bought some other critters from the system I usually buy from...a sally light foot and a sand sifter star for the fuge/sump. they are fine. I bought an emerald crab out of the 1.020 system where my replacement shrimp were taken out of as well. I spent an hour doing drip acclimation this time... Well, this time, all but the cleaner shrimp made it. The peppermints arent deep red yet, but they are hanging in there and look like they will be fine. What gives? Am I wrong to say that the LFS is weakening their stock in that system that is being kept at 1.020...or is suck a low salinity to blame? Both the LFS and I use RO water and keep temps at 80degrees...maybe theirs a few degrees less as the room temp is 80...so the water might be less. But really...any experts on this? Isnt low salinity deadly for inverts? OR is going from 1.020 to 1.025 in one hour just not going to happen? |
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#3
09/12/2004, 06:19 PM
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Yea, its very common. Alot of the time systems will be kept higher or lower to keep parasites down. Alot of stuff comes in which makes the chances for infesting the system with something much higher and it is way difficult to remove a pathogen from an invert system...
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#4
09/13/2004, 10:42 AM
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Re: LFS keeping inverts at 1.020...is this good?
Quote:
Going from 1.020 to 1.25 it Ok, but it'll take at least a couple of hours to do it. Consider how starfish move - all hydraulics right? When the 'inside' and 'outside' salinity is out of whack - inside things (like organs) can burst/shrivel. What’s why gargling with saltwater makes your sore throat feel better. The fresh water bacteria get all discouraged spending even a few seconds in a saltwater bath. Snails, in particular, usually needed to be treated with some TLC when acclimating them. I now measure all my acclimation times in terms of hours, and not minutes, for everything. |
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#5
09/13/2004, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Of course the real solution is to do what we do at home - give the creature time to recover from the move and get their immunity back. Too bad that's a bad business decision. |
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#6
09/13/2004, 12:05 PM
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Thats what I was thinking / wondering. Wouldnt keeping shrimp at extremely low salinity comprimise their immune system...or just plain lower their constitution to be less hardy? I found out something else today as well. It turns out that they dont know what temp their tank is kept at...they say their tanks are kept at 75...but the system I bought from was a concrete vat...no doubt being on the floor with all that concrete prolly means they are actually cooler. So, I am beginning to think that I am really trying to acclimate from a salinity of 1.020 to 1.025...as well as going from a temp of maybe as low as 72 to my 80. Hmmm. So what do you guys think? Spend 3 hours acclimating? FWIW, the emerald crab taken from the same tank acclimated much easier in 15minutes and was running around his new rocks minutes later. I never thought of shrimp as such wusses.
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#7
09/13/2004, 01:23 PM
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I would spend 3-4 hours. Shrimp are definitely wusses while acclimating. Crabs on the other hand, I bet they don't even notice.
__________________
Insert witty phrase, followed by explosive laughter |
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#9
09/22/2004, 03:58 PM
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When it comes to acclimating snails, clams, shrimp, crabs, starfish or urchins, if I have to raise the salinity from 1.020 or lower up to 1.025, I do a VERY SLOW drip w/ an airstone and spend 24 to 36 hours to acclimate my new animals. Actually, I spend about that long on fish too.
Some things are extemely sensitive to salinity changes. The big problem is, if the LFS didn't do a slow acclimation when they introduced the animal to their low salinity system, then your animal may die no matter how careful you are. I couldn't fingure out why I kept losing snails until I realized a certain LFS had abused them in the first place. I don't buy from them any more. If I possibly can, I now only buy my inverts from a local LFS which runs its system at about 1.024 or higher.
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Cheers, John "Man is certainly stark mad; he cannot make a worm, and yet he will be making gods by dozens." Michel Eyquem, seigneur de Montaigne (1533–1592) |
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#10
09/22/2004, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
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#11
09/22/2004, 04:15 PM
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Some places do try to hide their problems, but occasionally, this is not the case.
I have a local LFS which runs its salinity about 1.018 in their fish system, and they treat lightly w/ copper, and they are careful to remove the sick or dead fish. The owner really tries to get all his fish healthy again after he gets them. As long as I acclimate fish I buy from here carefully, and am careful not to get any of their copper tainted water in my tank, all the fish I have ever bought from there have been healthy. But is is definitely "BUYER BEWARE" wherever you shop.
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Cheers, John "Man is certainly stark mad; he cannot make a worm, and yet he will be making gods by dozens." Michel Eyquem, seigneur de Montaigne (1533–1592) |
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#12
09/22/2004, 07:23 PM
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Well, I dont think I will be buying from there much more. I went to another place (one that doesnt keep their fish at 1.010 and their critters at 1.020) and bought a cleaner....then another place and bought a fire shrimp, tuxedo urchin, and an anemone crab. All are fine. The pepppermint shrimp that did survive from the first place are odd. They have no color. They are peppermints, and rather active at that, but their red is very faded...almost like a ghost shrimp. One of them has a very dark patch on it's tail as well (like a black pigment). When I called to talk with them again I asked if they really intended on people acclimating their new critters for hours after receiving...they said no. They said there should be no problem with a 15-30 minute acclimation. I dont think that was right.
I will somply vote with my dollar. The stuff from that place died on me...waste of money. So, now I take my business elsewhere. |
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#14
09/25/2004, 02:49 PM
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I read a study a several years ago that was done on this subject. It actually concluded that most fish (not all, especially not sharks), and most inverts do better at the lower salinity. They grew faster, ate better, and were far less suseptable to diseases. It was done in Germany several years back. The exceptions are corals. Corals will perish in the lower salinity though.
In personal experiences, I keep my coral tanks at 1.025, but keep my FOWLR tanks at the lower salinity, around 1.019. I have never had any major outbreak of disease in the 20 years of keeping SW fish. I have had a few new tankmates get ick after a few days, but it subsided without treatment in these conditions. I had one lionfish grow from 2 inches to 18 inches and live 17 years under these conditions. Plants did fine, as well as the cleaner shrimp and emerald crabs. I will continue to keep my salinity at these levels. Though my coral and shark tanks will be kept higher.
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There is always a bigger fish |
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#15
09/30/2004, 11:34 PM
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You had cleaner shrimp in with the lion for 17 years?
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It is an interesting thought that you would need 40+ Yorkshire Terriers to equal the weight of one Mastiff! |
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#16
10/03/2004, 01:28 AM
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Yea right, LOL, actually no, they were in seperate tanks. In loin fish tanks were only lionfish and other fish, no crustacea at all. Shrimp were in the nano tanks with chomis, clowns and other fish.
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There is always a bigger fish |
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#17
10/14/2004, 04:52 PM
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i dont even acclimate shrimp, i float em for 10 minutes and dump em in, knowing my lfs keeps them in 1.025 and my tank is 1.026. now fish on the other hand is a different story, being that my lfs keeps em at 1.018- 1.019................i float for 10 minutes, then i add a cup of tank water every 10 minutes till water is doubled, i dump half of water out and repeat until salinity matches , then in they go, havent lost one yet
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#18
10/16/2004, 03:09 AM
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Update: I bought a cleaner from another store (first store wouldnt replace my cleaner 2nd time, insisting the problem was on my end)...didnt really acclimate it and it was 100% OK. The peppermints havent gained any color back...one is almost clear like a ghost shrimp with pale pink marks. The other one did get out of the tank today. Weird. It is rare that critters get out of the tank, but this week alone I found my 6-line wrasse 6 feet from the tank, and one of the peppermints on top of the tank cover glass...how it got there I cant even imagine. Oh, well, I couldnt stand that lousy looking shrimp anyways.
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