why hyposalinity doesn't work for my tank?

[ayrton]

Hy all,
I have had to use hyposalinity method in my 250 gls display tank because I haven't a quarantine tank enough large for all my fishes.
I have kept salinity at 13 ppt for 6 weeks and ich looked definitely gone but when I brought back my salinity at normal level my fishes show white spots again on their bodies.
I have always checked salinity during tretment. It have always been at 13 ppt level!!!!!!!!!!
Why ich is back?

Lorenzo

[SAT]

Bummer!

Usually six weeks will do the trick, but occasionally I see reports where it wasn't long enough. The little buggers don't always follow the rules. I'm assuming, BTW, that you were measuring the salinity correctly (not with a hydrometer) and that it was consistently below 16ppt for the whole six weeks, no exceptions.

[TealCobra]

This may be a dumb question but did you count 6 weeks total at that salinity or 6 weeks from the time you saw the last sign of infection?

[ayrton]

Originally posted by TealCobra
This may be a dumb question but did you count 6 weeks total at that salinity or 6 weeks from the time you saw the last sign of infection?

I counted 6 weeks total at 13 ppt salinity.
Could it be not enough?

Lorenzo

[TealCobra]

Originally posted by ayrton
I counted 6 weeks total at 13 ppt salinity.
Could it be not enough?

Lorenzo

Probably not. The rule of thumb is to begin counting after you see the last sign of infection. Depending on where the Ich is in its life cycle, you may not kill all of it while your SG is at 1.009. I tend to err on the side of caution and keep my fish at 1.009 for longer than most in QT to ensure there is no Ich left.

[ayrton]

Could ich survive under the sand?
During hypo treatment I didn't touch my sand that make two little mountains beause of my pumps flow.
After the cure I adjusted the sand for remaking a flat layer; is it possible that any tomonts could be survived?
Lorenzo

[TealCobra]

Well it is possible that any stage of the parasite survived since it showed back up on your fish. Unfortunately it wasn't all eliminiated before your brought your SG back up. It just needed more time to kill of it. FYI, Ich can attach be present on just about anything while waiting for a host. ie: Rocks, substrate, corals, inverts, etc.

[plaz]

I know the treatment didn't work for ich - but were you able to maintain a cycle at the low salinity? I've been doing 50% water changes every day on 3 quarantine tanks.

Nitrites still go to 1 on the salifert test. We lost a beautiful Hippo today (we got her 3 weeks ago and were doing Hypo on all fish before reintroducing. It was not ich - I don't know if it was due to the Nitrites, or if the PH shifted more than I thought or if it was something else entirely).

Now, I feel I need to slowly get my other fish out of this situation.
LiveAquaria says to stop doing the 50% changes - but I don't think the tanks will cycle at 1.009 anyway (and don't want to put weak fish through that). For now, I am taking a little out of a cycled Nano with a healthy fish; replacing some water in the nano, then taking a little more for the quarantines (and making sure the SPG doesn't raise much at all. Any suggestions appreciated.

[TealCobra]

Originally posted by plaz
I know the treatment didn't work for ich - but were you able to maintain a cycle at the low salinity? I've been doing 50% water changes every day on 3 quarantine tanks.

Nitrites still go to 1 on the salifert test. We lost a beautiful Hippo today (we got her 3 weeks ago and were doing Hypo on all fish before reintroducing. It was not ich - I don't know if it was due to the Nitrites, or if the PH shifted more than I thought or if it was something else entirely).

Now, I feel I need to slowly get my other fish out of this situation.
LiveAquaria says to stop doing the 50% changes - but I don't think the tanks will cycle at 1.009 anyway (and don't want to put weak fish through that). For now, I am taking a little out of a cycled Nano with a healthy fish; replacing some water in the nano, then taking a little more for the quarantines (and making sure the SPG doesn't raise much at all. Any suggestions appreciated.

When using Hypo on a QT, you will more than likely have to do these large and regular water changes to maintain good water quality. That has been my experience when starting the QT with water from my display and slowly lowering the SG over a week to 1.009. It took quite some time but eventually my 10g QT has built up a decent biofilter and I can go up to 3 days between water changes (2g at a time) but do it every other day to play it safe. All I am using is a sponge filter.

I really need more info than you have given to understand what the conditions were that you lost your Hippo. How much of a pH swing was there? Was the Hippo introduced when the SG was normal and slowly lowered over time? How much time was it in QT before it died? Can you give me specific details on how your QT is set up in terms of filtration? Also, you will more than likely have to buffer the pH (CAREFULLY) to maintain 8.0 or higher. You can use super buffer but please be careful as it will spike the pH if too much is used in a short period of time. How much are you feeding the fish in QT? Are you removing the waste to prevent it from accumulating (ie: food and poop)? If you are using a sponge filter, are you cleaning it daily to prevent build up there? Running a QT is not that hard but you really have to be diligent in monitoring it.

[plaz]

Thanks,
THis is the history (sorry in advance for the length):
The Hippo was purchased to replace the one we sadly lost when a parasite got in his gills in the reef. When that happened (Hippo was the only fish affected) we decided to remove all fish to quarantine and let the tank go fallow. Once the Hippo was gone, the Yellow Tang started rubbing just a little - so, we didn't think leaving them in ich was worth the risk.

The Hippo was shipped to us 3 1/2 weeks ago and a shipping error caused a terrible delay. The fish was ice cold when we finally tracked him down at the UPS early the next morning. 3 of 5 chromis died during the shipment. The shipper offered a refund because it was their fault, but I could not give up on the fish. I acclimated him to our quarantine whcich had some water from a nano (no ich) and a charcoal/sponge filter that had soaked in the nano for a few days. He shook for a day (inside PVC pipe), but nibbled on some live algae. He came around over the next few days (still shy). After almost a week, he seemed really healthy and came out to eat regularly.

We started lowering the salinity very gradually on the 10 gallon quarantine that 2 remaining chromis were in. They did well (salinity brought down with 4 small changes a day over 4 days). We then lowered the Hippos 20 gallon the same way. After he was adjusted, we did the same for the Yellow in a separate 20 gallon. The Hippo was doing really well as were the Chromis. But the Nitrites in both tanks kept going to 1 using the Salifert test (a little above trace according to strips- but stressful). So that we could change a 50% of the water twice daily a little easier, we moved the Chromis in with the Hippo. The Hippo really came around then. Swam and ate, seemed very happy. I know I fed too much - he ate like a pig. But I carefully vacuumed all food each night while changing the water. Salinity and PH were matched each time. I would also add half the water, then wait an hour to add the other half (after lowering the water level). Filter was taken out, replaced by powerhead because we thought it might be making things worse.

Everything went great for a little over a week. Food was varied - live algae, some adult brine soaked in vitamins, frozen and pellets. I overfed pellets on one occasion, I know - because I had more stuck to my finger than I realized. But the Hippo scarfed them up in about a minute. The next night one of the Chromis was injured by the meaner one, so I moved him to a breeder net in the tank. The Hippo and other Chromis seemed a little agitated - but I wrote it off to the capture of the (slightly) injured chromis. I did about a 15% change that night because of the net. In vaccuming all the food I did hit the Hippos 2" pvc pipe y (caught in the suction) but didn't think much of it.

The next morning, the Hippo was lying under the pipe. Once he saw me, he pushed it off (strongly - you could hear it move). He came to the front of the tank swimming not well at all. His head went down, tail up. His body kind of bent - almost like a cramping. His tail was also clamped and he was breathing really fast. The Chromis all seemed fine. I had some water made, so I did a 50% change. About 3 hours later, I did another 50%. PH was matched with Reef Buffer. It would drop to about 7.7 sometimes, so I would have to add a little in water. Water was RO/DI. The day went badly. After the first change, I thought he was doing a little better because he was swimming straighter and not breathing as hard and tail was not as clasped (but darting, even hit the side twice). About two hours after the second change, he was upside down about halfway down the tank. He hen went to the bottom of the tank on his side (as he had done a couple of other times) - his body kept curling (like it was contracting). His tail was clamped again. Then he was dead.

Nitrites were a little over 1 but not quiet 2 on the Salifert test when this started. PH was a little low (7.8 - ranged from 7.8 - 8.2 during the week). Chromis are all still fine (except the bruise on the one Chromis). The tang was gorgeous when he died - no streaks, marks, anything. His color had all come back from the original shipment stress, except a little light blue on his belly.

Sorry again for the long story - but I don't want to kill any more fish, and am trying to figure out if I did something wrong.

[TealCobra]

So did the Hippo ever have Ich? Ich can actually kill a fish in a couple days upon first infection if the numbers are high enough and the fish is in poor health. What you need to realize is that Ich initially infects the gills of the fish so by the time you are seeing signs of infection on the fins and body, the fish has already been dealing with it for some time.

Obviously he was extremely stressed from the shipping error. Sounds like water quality may have been the culprit in his death. How big was he? It is possible the QT just wasn't big enough to handle the load of those fish. It doesn't sound like you were slacking in the water change department for a normal, start-up QT. Don't get discouraged; try to learn from your mistakes so that you may avoid them in the future.

[plaz]

The only signs were a little rubbing on the PVC about a week into quarantine. He had stopped rubbing and seemed to be doing great when he crashed (figured the Hypo had taken care of it - if it was ever there). Water quality still an unfortunate possiblity, he was over 4" in a 20 gallon long, but the ammonia stayed at trace level due to the careful water changes.

I do not know whether to ever try Hypo again, yet it may have had nothing to do with this.

Other possibilities people have mentioned:
- Cyanide poisoning (apparently it can show up weeks after)
- Stomach bacteria from lack of enzyme if starved while shipped (I fed him too much but vaccumed food and poop, did water change an hour after feeding to try and make sure the water quality didn't suffer too much).
- Just some delayed problem after the terrible shipping

Thanks. It is hard not to get depressed when something like this happens - sooo much conflicting advice on the web, it is hard to know what you did to learn!

[TealCobra]

I wouldn't be too hard on yourself about it. And I certainly wouldn't avoid using Hypo in the future (especially with Tangs). There aren't just a lot of options to eliminate Ich and Hypo has got be the least harsh of the two.

[leebca]

ayrton,

Hyposalinity treatment doesn't kill ich. Now that I have your attention. . .Hyposalinity stresses the ich parasite.

A study says that ich can halt its cycle up to 6 weeks. This would mean that a hyposalinity treatment should be at least 8 weeks in my opinionafter the salinity is brought to 1.008 to 1.009.

Since hypo doesn't guarantee death of the parasite, there is a very small chance it will hold out for the 6 week stretch.

Also, the hypo treatment is effective against ich but not its cousin. You must be sure what disease you are trying to eradicate. An accurate diagnosis is needed.

There are at least the above reasons why you may still have ich. But there is a whole host of others, including contamination and accidently keeping the parasite alive through nets, water contamination, etc.