Trying something new... Revisiting old methodology.

[WetSleeves]

I am trying a clean approach to my current reef. I am running skimmerless, BB and I plan to rely on liverock, carbon and water changes as my sole means of filtration.

I know different aspects of this has been done before but I can't think of anyone who's done it exactly like this. So, I'm giving it a run. The only one that I've seen personally that's similar is Sanjay's softie tank. But he does have sand and doesn't do water changes (if I remember correctly.)

Here's the theory. If I keep the main display flow extremely high with little to no detritus buildup, than the suspended detritus will be eaten by the corals. What is not eaten will overflow and collect in the bottom of my sump. I vaccuum that out every week or two along with a 15%-30% water change (respectively).
In the words of Bobby Boucher; Sand is the Devil. It does a lot of great things but IME, none of them outweighs it's one major flaw.... It collects poop and becomes a ticking nitrogen bomb.
I am debating about growing macroalgae in the sump. Not chaeto. I've tried it and was not impressed. I can't get hair algae to grow. So that's not much of an option, or a problem.
I could probably count the number of times I've tested the calcium, alkalinity and ammonia bi-products, for the last 7-8 years on my hands. I only test salinity, monitor pH, monitor temperature and eyeball the tank for gelbstoff build up. I don't care if the temp fluctuates +- 4 degrees F. or if the specific gravity changes a few points with water changes. Anyone who's snokeled or dived during a tide change knows why. So, I guess you can say I'm pretty hands off in those regards and more biologist than I am chemist or engineer... taxonomy aside.

If there are any of you out there who have had the kahonies to try something like this I'd love to hear your insights. If you haven't tried it, please don't knock it.

[geekreef_05]

welcome to my world!

I run a very similar 60 gallon setup, with the following changes:
i) I use a SSB, only b/c I think it looks more natural. The sand averages about 1-2cm deep in most areas (ya, Im not kidding when I say shallow).

ii) I have no sump or fuge. The deterus collectes in my HOB filter; using poly filter material that I buy in bulk rolls from the LFS. The HOB contains only carbon and poly. Due to the high flow all the crud eventually makes it into this HOB; sure makes for simple maintaince.

iii) My tank is a FOWLR setup. I do have steady, but slow coralline growth with my super spectaular 2x20watts PC lighting for the entire 60 gallon, lol. Needless to say its really only enough light for the fish to see.

This setup has been working for me for about a year. Its amazing beacuse its extremely simple, low maintaince, yet beautiful. Id check your params every now and then, cause its likely that you wont have to do as many water changes as you think. I change about 50% water every 6 months; params remain 'perfect'.

happy reefin'

[WetSleeves]

Thanks for posting!

I am doing the large water changes in part for the trace element replacement. But I will keep that in mind. I may in time end up doing water changes just large enough to get the detritus out of the sump.

[VWD]

You can alway do more water changes to take the place of a good skimmer

[WetSleeves]

...and replace the trace elements a good skimmer strips.

[ReefRascals]

I ran a little 15 gallon reef tank with no skimmer or sump. 100% water changes as necessary with Tropic Marin salt, and Restore (a two part trace element additive) two or three times a week. This system ran for the better part of 12 years without a single issue.

Good luck!

[WetSleeves]

Originally posted by ReefRascals
I ran a little 15 gallon reef tank with no skimmer or sump. 100% water changes as necessary with Tropic Marin salt, and Restore (a two part trace element additive) two or three times a week. This system ran for the better part of 12 years without a single issue.

Good luck!

WOW! That's impressive. What kinds of animals did you keep in the tank? How did you do a 100% water change without affecting the animals? Approximately how often was "as needed?"
Thanks,
Walt

[ReefRascals]

For half of the aquariums life it had two 15w flourescent bulbs, then it was upgraded to a single 32w pc. I mention this because the only problem it had was with algae growth, as would be expected. The pc's provided more light, and algae became a greater concern. Again, the aquarium was set up for a long time, and it was at my store. We tried not to sell out of it but when a clownfish got too big, we would replace him with a smaller one. The biggest concern was bioload, and in fact there were periods when there were no fish. It was then that the aquarium really shined. That being said, the corals alway thrived, and the coraline algae growth was the biggest maintenance issue.

Sometimes we would do a monthly water change...essentially because there were more fish in the aquarium at those times, but there were also times when it went 4 or 5 months. As for the way we did water changes, first it was a bare borrom tank. Second, I would drain ALL the water out, leaving the corals high and dry and the fish often laying on their sides. Third, I would pour in a bucket of water out of another reef, being certain to pour the water in the back and stirr up any detritus in the back and within the rocks. I would siphon this water out again, then refill with r.o. water mixed with Tropic Marin salt. I wish I could say there was more science to it, but that was it. And to add one more thing..neither the fish nor the corals suffered. In fact, the corals always did very well, but they would get huge after a water change.

[WetSleeves]

That's pretty cool. Thanks for sharing that.
I won't tolerate much algae growth. I've not had any in this system yet and I want no part of it. If that starts and can't be remedied with water changes or macro algae in the sump, the skimmer goes back online. So far so good, but it hasn't been quite a month yet.

[tineng]

I have done that on my office nano, about 5 gallon tank. bio-load is low with only 1 demsel. The tank setup is only 1 tank, a overhead filter, seio 620 and lights.....have it running for 6 months now and no sign of algae growth.

My method has been relatively simple, but requires a bit of work.
- first off.....water change every 2 days. Salt mix is done using DI water - distill even better but too expenisve
- for the first 2 months, i actually covered the tank in black rubblish bag. so water changes involve taking out the bag and putting it back it
- Be careful with the rockworks, make sure dirt doesn't accumlate at the bottom
- Water change involve using a tube to make sure you can siphone the dirt that sank to the bottom
- fish and corals only goes in after month 3....
- now its month 6 and i have cut back water change to twice weekly. BB is almost covered with coraline agale (i think it has to do a lot with the water changes)
- no carbon was used....
- a air stone skimmer was place it, but was not for skimming (not skimate comes out of it anyway) but really to keep the tank cool while controlling the micro-bubble

[Esper]

I actually just set up my 40 gallon this way. let's see how it goes.

I am using NSW that I filter with coffee filters as it's put in the tank. I have no sump or HOB filter, just 3 maxi-jets with carbon pads that I cut to fit over the grill intakes. these collect detritus and kind of polish the water. I rinse the detritus free as I see it build up (every few days) and will change the pads completely after a few weeks. I'd prefer to run sponge filters on the powerheads and a fluval or something with GAC that I could use more selectively, but I'm cheap and just used what I already had. Alternating flow is a must to keep detritus in suspension!

the NSW I collect is very green, and has tons of phyto and zooplankton that everything in the tank eats. Thus, waterchanges also equal feeding time...I also think this is the only tank I've ever seen where the water gets less clear after a waterchange...but its already the most healthy-looking tank I've set up.

[WetSleeves]

Thank you both.
Between my closed loops and my returns I have well over 10,000 GPH flow through my tank (210 gallon) yielding more than 47 times the tank volume per hour. I definately don't have a problem with detritus collecting in the main display. It stays either in the sump or in suspension to be eaten by the corals.
Because I have two Sequence Reeflo Barracudas running the closed loops I occasionally do shut one off for a day or so to shake up the small amounts of detritus that collect in the rock work.

[Frankysreef]

filter socks

[WetSleeves]

Been there. Done that. Had the nitrate problems.

I found that I have better luck if I let the detritus lay in the bottom of the sump undisturbed until I syphon it out. Something about it collecting in a bag with water churning it up made me have nitrate and phosphate problems. Plus, it's a pain having to bleach them all the time. I hate laundry as it is.
- They work great for some people. I just didn't like them.

Tell me more about your reef. We seem to be running similarly sized systems. Ever gone skimmerless for any length of time?

[Frankysreef]

I have been using filter socks since day 1, u change em every 4 days.. get about 16. I run two at a time in my reef along with a bag of carbon in each.

They catch uneaten food... large particulates will not be exported by your skimmer... They may start to rot in the bag, but they are changed every 4 days. so no time...

When you go through all 16 for me about a mo... throw them all in the wash inside out with a little bleach and hot water and start all over again.

Then my skimmers ( I have 2 ) are running in the chamber with the socks... so after it goes through the mechanical filtration then it goes throught the skimmers..

Then the clean water is piped by a mag 7 into my fuge/frag tank which then outputs right before the dolphin 3600 which sucks all the good stuff up and blows it into the display where the anthias and corals gobble it up.

I also use an auto top off and a 2 chamber large calc reactor which is pressure fed by a mag 3...

I have a 20 gall rodi reservoiur which I also used for water changes... the auto top off makes this really easy...

I actually just put my skimmers on a timer to only run at night to keep the heat down... they were spinning thier wheels alot.. so I let the gunk build up a bit now. Save energy any way I can right now.

F

[Frankysreef]

Skimmer on a timer might be a good idea for you... That way it is there if you need it...

[WetSleeves]

Thanks for sharing your system information.

I'm trying to run this system with as little man made equipment as possible. So under my current criteria, a skimmer is a no-go. I may reconsider the filter bags when I replumb my overflows. The system was running on an under sized, poorly adjusted skimmer for the first 9 months. So, I really had little fear when I decided to take it off line around the first of September. If I start bleaching corals or growing undesirable algae, I will likely put the skimmer back online until I can afford to get a Deltec or one of the other high speed, low drag, teflon coated, straight shooting skimmers. For now it's just an experiment that will end if and when it starts to become a problem.
I have only had one problem since the skimmer has been offline. While I was in Australia on my honeymoon, my light timer malfunctioned and my main lights were out for about a week. My automatic feeders ran out. I lost several fish including 4 anthias, a copperband butterfly and a triangle butterfly that was living in my sump. All my corals got slightly bleached and many had tiny specks of tissue loss. I lost a blue tort frag and another blue acro frag. Since I got back and got the lights back on the corals have made a good recovery. Though they're not colored up completely yet they are getting there. Because this was not attributable to the skimmer, I remain undeturred in this experiment.

[Frankysreef]

What I have discovered with my system is.. That the cleaner the water is the faster the acros grow... of course with the right flow.

My euphyllia have actually died from lack of nutrients..

When I slack on water changes you can tell from the way the acros are, they kinda fade a bit. ( elements )

But I remember the dirty days... algae algae and more algae...

I can't believe that you don't test for alk and calc very often...Those are the only things that I test for! Probly weekly, for when my alk and calc go off kilter... things will STN, and I start to have other problems.

The bigger that your colonies are the MORE calc they take, and finding that standard can be difficult, but the fact is that the calc and alk will change over time as the colonies grow.. that is guaranteed.

Soo your calc and alk will need to be monitored to keep the stability so your corals wont be affected..

But if your are growing only softies in your tank you might be OK for they like dirtier water...

Well good luck...

[WetSleeves]

I reef by the seat of my pants if you will. I use indicating factors in the system to tell me when something is off kilter.
- If the corraline stops exploding all over my glass, it's probably time to refill the kalk reactor.
- If I start getting a heavy dusting of diatoms on the glass within 3 days it's time for a water change or a skimmer adjustment (if applicable).
- If corals start to turn brown it's either time to replace my bulbs or the gelbstoff is building up.
It's little things like that that tip me off. It's taken me a long time and a lot of losses to figure these things out and I don't advise anyone to do what I do, but I will probably never change.
I do have a brand new calcium reactor that has been waiting to go online for about six months but I will probably not bother with that until my calcium needs exceed the kalk reactor's output. In fact I've already had to throttle it back. As long as the pH stays around 8.1 - 8.2 and the corraline is still a PITA I'm not worried about it.

There are other unorthodox things that I do too. I use tap water to mix my water and replace the evaporation. I buy Mrs. Wage's pickling lime by the case instead of using Kent marine Kalkwasser. It's about a tenth of the price and seems to work just as well.
Still I can't boast or brag because this is a young system and my corals have all been started from small frags. I've had a few pitfalls along the way, but so far there hasn't been anything that I can blame on the system philosophy itself.

[Frankysreef]

Don't u think it is better to have a log, and do your maintenance on a schedule?

Seriously if RTN or STN starts ( which it will )... you will probably lose the colony, and it gets harder the bigger the colonies get.

The last thing you want to do is stress your acropora... I had a tyree pm frag... my alk was off for about a week, no other corals were affected... PM died... $135 lost.

Stress + acropora does not mix well....

good luck

[WetSleeves]

Well corals will seldom RTN out of the blue. There's usually an indication before hand. Like discoloration, bleaching or polyp retraction.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention. I lost a PM frag too while I was on my honeymoon. - Free from a friend. If I decide to keep another I'll probably pay as much. I'm not gonna risk an experiment on a coral that costs a huge amount of money. I'm keeping common Acros and montiporas and easier SPS for the most part. I've got an efflo and some other more sensitive corals in the mix too but I'm not gonna just sit there while the whole tank slowly crashes. If I see a detrimental effect I'll act accordingly.

[WetSleeves]

Here's what it looked like in January. It was mostly baserock with a little rubbel rock. The right side had a little LR. Most of that was man made.


This is what made me start back at square one in February. What you're seeing is about a pound of kalk that was accidently added to the system while I slept. I've used a Litermeter ever since.


Here's some shots from last month.







I think it's progressed pretty well considering I've only added frags (except one purple monti) and I've done things in a way that most people would expect to cause a tank crash.

[Frankysreef]

"but I'm not gonna just sit there while the whole tank slowly crashes. "

Have you just answered your own question?

RTN and STN happen overnight! The whole colony will be dead in days.... and then it has to adjust to whatever caused the problem, while you are changing parameters to fix the problem.

Frags are easy to take care of, when they mature into colonies the difficulty level goes up.

Change flow - rtn
high alk - rtn
low alk - rtn
low calc - rtn
nitrates - rtn
amm - rtn
and the list goes on..

I have colonies going on 6 yrs old right now, and almost every one of the older ones has rtn'd on me at least once. Luckily saved a frag and regrew it..

How are you planning to remove oils and fish excrements..? That stuff will not float to the bottom of the sump, and you may not get most of it out with water changes.

Find a good used skimmer...I got a EuroReef cs6 for $200 from a friend .. works great.

I try to be the master of NO maintenance in my system...But I run 2 skimmers, filter socks, carbon, and a fuge, and water changes every 2 weeks.

I have 11 fish, and about 80 species of coral. Most of my rock is covered with coral right now...200+ lbs of rock.

I wish you luck but a skimmer would make your life a lot easier.

Welcome to sps.

[WetSleeves]

I'm not saying I will never use a skimmer again. Just that I want to see if this can be done. I didn't just start doing this yesterday. I have been reefing for 9 years now and I have a pretty good idea of what I can get away with and when something needs to be fixed or changed.
Give it a little time. You can poke fun at me if I fail.

Thanks for the dialogue. Dispite our opposing views it's been nice talking with you about this.
Walt

[Frankysreef]

If you are as insane of a reefer as I am you won't fail...

But you'll discover that it is too much work, and you'll buy a skimmer !!