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  #51  
Old 07/15/2002, 01:35 PM
pm_devin pm_devin is offline
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Acrylicman, I am using an acrylic tank as a sump and would like to install a divider to use one half as a refugium. Could you tell me how I should join the acrylic.
Thanks.
  #52  
Old 07/15/2002, 02:50 PM
Acrylicman Acrylicman is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Flamehawk
Hi Acrylicman, can't wait for the on-line books. Also, if you were local, i would attend your "classes" for a good fee. Maybe $50 or so.

Can you please show us how to make FLANGES?!
I'm not sure what you mean by "Flanges"

Please descibe it or send a pic.

I would be happy to help if I can.

Sincerely, Acrylicman
  #53  
Old 07/15/2002, 02:57 PM
Acrylicman Acrylicman is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by pm_devin
Acrylicman, I am using an acrylic tank as a sump and would like to install a divider to use one half as a refugium. Could you tell me how I should join the acrylic.
Thanks.
It takes a lot of precision to add a divider after the fact exactly.

If you want it removable ,you can buy grooved extrusion to cement those to the wall and slide your divider in.

To cement:

I would cement (weldon 4 would be fine) a block on each side of the tank and then cut your divider as accurately as possible. Even it is off a bit they will glue well to the blocks. Then carefully apply weldon 16 in a tube to be sure of no gaps.

Then weldon 4 the bottom and then a half an hour later apply a bead of weldon 16 there also.

Do you need to drill the divider?

Let me know, I'll give a few pointers.

If my above explanation was confusing I could try to set something up and take a picture of it!

Keep on fabricating! Sincerely, Acrylicman
  #54  
Old 07/15/2002, 03:00 PM
Acrylicman Acrylicman is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by pm_devin
Acrylicman, I am using an acrylic tank as a sump and would like to install a divider to use one half as a refugium. Could you tell me how I should join the acrylic.
Thanks.
P.S. assuming you have read other threads of mine.

Square the pice up with a jig (check previous replies) and put approx a 25 gauge pin every 6 inch, apply solvent carefully, let sit 30 seconds and gently pull pins.

This will make a strong seam

Take care! Acrylicman
  #55  
Old 07/15/2002, 05:03 PM
pm_devin pm_devin is offline
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Thanks for the info. I will use the blocks as you recommended. As far as drilling I have drilled acrylic a few times and had no problems, but I would appreciate a few pointers on touching up the holes after drilling.
Thanks for the help.
Pat
  #56  
Old 07/15/2002, 05:34 PM
Acrylicman Acrylicman is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by pm_devin
Thanks for the info. I will use the blocks as you recommended. As far as drilling I have drilled acrylic a few times and had no problems, but I would appreciate a few pointers on touching up the holes after drilling.
Thanks for the help.
Pat
If you have a proper drill bit and it is sharp than the holes should be perfect,if it is drilled on a drill press.

If they are big holes, Use a bimetallic hole saw (not carbide). Use a drill press. Take a little at a time, bringing it out to release the chips. Slower is better so that you don't build up heat. You will get a cleaner hole with higher density acrylic. Preferably cast or continuous cast material (Lucite)

You can alter a small drill bit yourself to work well but it is difficult to do it just right. Your best bet is to buy an acrylic bit. If they are 1/8,3/16 or 1/4 bits by diamond dust bits from Craftics. They really work well and do not crack the acrylic easily. They are inexpensive.

CRaftics is in Chicago, Check there website!

As far as cleaning up bad holes, if it is small, counter sink the hole with a good bit and that will clean up the chips around the edge. Large holes done with a holesaw can be cleaned up with a small sanding drum (1") on a drill press. This will clean it up.

Keep on fabricating! Sincerely, Acrylicman
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  #57  
Old 07/15/2002, 06:38 PM
mxpro32 mxpro32 is offline
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i have a question about gluing the edge of a piece that has been bent. i can make good bends but the piece shrinks where it is bent and doesnt sit flat. how do you prepare the edges on a bent piece so that the whole edge sits flat enough to get a good seem. also what can you do to prevent the seems from cracking. i made a tank that looked good (no cracking) but after a few days all the seems had cracks splitting off in different directions. i think it was caused by not preparing the edges good enough. are there any other precautions to take to keep the corners from cracking? thanks a bunch in advance.
  #58  
Old 07/15/2002, 06:57 PM
Acrylicman Acrylicman is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by mxpro32
i have a question about gluing the edge of a piece that has been bent. i can make good bends but the piece shrinks where it is bent and doesnt sit flat. how do you prepare the edges on a bent piece so that the whole edge sits flat enough to get a good seem. also what can you do to prevent the seems from cracking. i made a tank that looked good (no cracking) but after a few days all the seems had cracks splitting off in different directions. i think it was caused by not preparing the edges good enough. are there any other precautions to take to keep the corners from cracking? thanks a bunch in advance.
Those cracks are called crazing! It is difficult to be exact and sure in telling you my recommendations without seeing what you are talking about, but assuming the most common problem you are describing,I'll make my suggestion.

A Jointer would solve both your problems. The piece you bent is showing what I call bananing. I can explain why and tell you how to lessen it, but it would be lengthy and without seeing a picture I would have to cover every aspect.

Take your piece and run it across your jointer freehand until the surface is totally flat, at least 2-3 passes with it set at 1/16" of an inch.

That should give you a flat surface to cement with. If I'm not understanding your bowing problem ,please send me a picture and I will be able to help further.

The other problem is probably two fold, one there is micro pitting from your machining, probably the way your are cutting. Each of those pits will expand into a crack soon after solvent cementing.

Again run the edge slowly over the jointer until the edge is flawless without pits. There is a good chance you are using low density extruded acrylic also.

What type of acrylic are you using? and What type of solvents are you using?

Also what are the details of your machining practices?

Give me more info and pictures and I would be happy to help you further!

Keep on fabricating! Sincerely, Acrylicman
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  #59  
Old 08/05/2002, 02:05 AM
jimichonga jimichonga is offline
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Acrylicman:

Hey, first of all I want to say thanks for helping us out with all the great info!

I've been working with acrylic for some time now but have not taken on a project as big as my next one: a 200gal (48Lx32.5Wx30H) tank out of 3/4in cell cast.

My question is with bonding the seams. I've read on other posts that after cementing the edge (the way you have said, with pins, jig and weld-on 4) to run a bead of thickened cement down the inside edge to add more strength for larger tanks. Is this good or bad in your opinion?

Also another technique on http://www.cyro.com/ (an acrylic info site)
They state that the use of thinner solvents is not recommended for aquariums, and to use weld-on 40 ( link to there aquarium info ) and to use a technique to involved to type out so I'll post that link as well ( scroll down to T-JOINTS ). Does this technique seem to be stronger or weaker in your opinion?

I'm in no way doubting your technique, I'm just a perfectionist and want to know the best (strongest) way to build my tank. I know there is "more than one way to skin a cat" I just want to know the best way. And it seems that all three of these techniques (yours and the two I post) have a valid point.

Again thanks for all the help, Jimmy
  #60  
Old 08/05/2002, 09:30 AM
Siddroww Siddroww is offline
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Acrylicman ,

First of all I know nothing about building a tank so I am looking for basics . Will .500 thick Acrylite GP Cast acrylic be stong enough for a 120 . 48 x 24 x 24 ? I will be putting on a top on with 2 openings on each side .

Also do you know anything about SC - 125 Acrylic solvent MIL - D - 6998D ? This is what I have available from my vender AIN Plastics . If you do not recomend it where can I buy the weldon ?

I intend to build a 90 degree jig and use the pin method you have talked about in this thread . I am going to order the pieces cut to 48 x 24 and 2 ends 24 x 24 and should only have to cut the 2 ends to 24 x 23 using .500 . Does that sound right ? Also what type of saw blade should be used ? I will make the cuts on a table saw . And if I want to round the edges what type of router bit should be used ?

Only one more . Cutting the openings on the top what do you use . A jigsaw sounds practical but I'm not sure .

I am a machinist and familiar w/ Speeds and feed rates so any tips you have there would be usefull .

Thanks , John
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  #61  
Old 08/05/2002, 02:37 PM
KevinM KevinM is offline
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Siddroww.....
Go here and plug your numbers into this formula for the required thickness.

http://cyro.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/cyr...Z2U9MQ**&p_li=
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  #62  
Old 08/05/2002, 04:11 PM
Siddroww Siddroww is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by KevinM
Siddroww.....
Go here and plug your numbers into this formula for the required thickness.

http://cyro.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/cyr...Z2U9MQ**&p_li=
Yea I've been there but I aint dat mart .

Maybe I could have my 15 year old daughter take a look at it . I just figured this guy could say yes or no use 3/4

Trying to take the easy way out I guess.
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  #63  
Old 08/05/2002, 04:38 PM
JRF JRF is offline
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Hi Acrylicman,
I have a question for you; if you were to build a tank 96" long , 26" wide , and 30" tall what thickness material would you use?
Thanks
JRF
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  #64  
Old 08/05/2002, 04:55 PM
JRF JRF is offline
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Oops, I just saw the above post with the formula. Looks like 1 inch acrylic when I plug in my numbers.
JRF
  #65  
Old 08/05/2002, 06:50 PM
Acrylicman Acrylicman is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by JRF
Hi Acrylicman,
I have a question for you; if you were to build a tank 96" long , 26" wide , and 30" tall what thickness material would you use?
Thanks
JRF
3/4" is plenty, The first 10 years I would of built that tank out of 1/2". Never had one let loose out of 1/2"


Now that I'm more conservative I tend to overkill a little. If your not very experienced at glue seams, overkill a lot.

Out of 1/2" you would get a 1/2' bow out of the tank the last 3" of filling.

3/4" gives you more rigidity.

A big part of building a tank and it's strength is the top. That is the problem with formulas.

A thick top will do wonders on reducing stress and bow on the front. Also the size and location of your access holes.

The only time I build a tank that size out of one inch is for zoos and public aquariums.

About 10 years a go I put 4 aquariums in the Cleveland Clinic 96 x 36 x 48 high out of 1 1/4" and 1". They are still up and going strong.


I commonly go 36" high with 3/4" material. Even a 96 x 24.


I will stress that tanks that big aren't safe for a beginner to build.

Keep on fabricating< Sincerely, Acrylicman
  #66  
Old 08/05/2002, 07:06 PM
Acrylicman Acrylicman is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Siddroww
Acrylicman ,

First of all I know nothing about building a tank so I am looking for basics . Will .500 thick Acrylite GP Cast acrylic be stong enough for a 120 . 48 x 24 x 24 ? I will be putting on a top on with 2 openings on each side .

Also do you know anything about SC - 125 Acrylic solvent MIL - D - 6998D ? This is what I have available from my vender AIN Plastics . If you do not recomend it where can I buy the weldon ?

I intend to build a 90 degree jig and use the pin method you have talked about in this thread . I am going to order the pieces cut to 48 x 24 and 2 ends 24 x 24 and should only have to cut the 2 ends to 24 x 23 using .500 . Does that sound right ? Also what type of saw blade should be used ? I will make the cuts on a table saw . And if I want to round the edges what type of router bit should be used ?

Only one more . Cutting the openings on the top what do you use . A jigsaw sounds practical but I'm not sure .

I am a machinist and familiar w/ Speeds and feed rates so any tips you have there would be usefull .

Thanks , John
1/2" is very good, and Acrylite GP is fine.

I build that tank commercially out of 3/8" and ocassionally out of 1/2" for customers who want it beefy.

A 60 tooth blade is good but if you will be cutting thinner material go to a 80 tooth carbide blade. c-4 grade would be nice but not necessary. It should have a triple cut tooth configuration for cutting acrylic without building to much heat.

Those blades are not cheap but you get what you pay for.

You want to joint the edges if possible. Make sure they are at 90 degrees or you will get bubbles along the edges.

I am familiar with that glue, It is a lot like Weldon 3, it will dry to fast. Do not use it.

Use Weldon 4, preferably with a little glacial acetic acid or at least make sure the temperature is between 65-75 degrees.

90 degree weather will dry the solvent quickly.

The slower it dries the farther it will sink and the stronger the seam.

Get some Weldon 5 and mix 10-20 percent with the Weldon 4 this will slow down the solvent and make a stronger seam.

A round over bit is what you want. A 1/2" one preferably.

Take a little off at a time.

The final pass make sure the router bit bottom point is equal to the base.

My manuals soon to come will teach you how to bend that tank and then you won't need round over bits.

You can build benders that will give you professional quality for $100.

With 12 guys and 3 skids of plastic a week I still build all my own benders.

The acces holes, Use a router instead of a jig saw.

Build a wood or acrylic template of the rectangle hole and clamp or tape to top. Then drill a hole and route out. Make first pass within 1/8" of template then do the final pass.

Use a 1/2 " twin flute bit. Don't worry about details of router bit if you are only going to build one or two tanks.

Onsrud makes acrylic router bits. They are pricey but leave a nice finish.

Let me know how it is working for you!

Keep on fabricating, Sincerely, Acrylicman
  #67  
Old 08/05/2002, 07:09 PM
JRF JRF is offline
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Acrylicman,
Thanks for the info! The tank is going to be built by a professional and well-known tank manufacturer. One engineer says that 3/4" all the way around is plenty while another engineer at the same company says 1" in required. Again, this is from a very popular tank company. So I became a bit confused and worried. I don't want the tank to bow so I decided to ask your opinion. Also, going with 1" material will add $1000 to the price I'm sure! Now, this tank I am speaking of is not a standard rectangle, it has a vertical side on the left and an angle on the right side ( it will be going against a stairway wall, so the angle on one end will match the stairway wall slope ). So actually, the top plate will only be 68.5" long and the bottom plate 99" long with the angle meeting the two ( make sense? ). So the front and back panels are not actually a full 99" / 30" with that angle cut. I also feel that 3/4" material would be sufficient.
Should I require a 1" top plate to be sure the tank does not bow? Or will a 3/4" top plate be sufficient?
Thanks again
JRF
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  #68  
Old 08/05/2002, 07:17 PM
KevinM KevinM is offline
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Siddroww....
Just down that page a bit is a downloadable spreadsheet. It's set up so that you just plug in your numbers and it does all the cypherin'. If you have Excel, that is.

Kev
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  #69  
Old 08/05/2002, 07:42 PM
Acrylicman Acrylicman is offline
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Re: Acrylicman:

Quote:
Originally posted by jimichonga
Hey, first of all I want to say thanks for helping us out with all the great info!

I've been working with acrylic for some time now but have not taken on a project as big as my next one: a 200gal (48Lx32.5Wx30H) tank out of 3/4in cell cast.

My question is with bonding the seams. I've read on other posts that after cementing the edge (the way you have said, with pins, jig and weld-on 4) to run a bead of thickened cement down the inside edge to add more strength for larger tanks. Is this good or bad in your opinion?

Also another technique on http://www.cyro.com/ (an acrylic info site)
They state that the use of thinner solvents is not recommended for aquariums, and to use weld-on 40 ( link to there aquarium info ) and to use a technique to involved to type out so I'll post that link as well ( scroll down to T-JOINTS ). Does this technique seem to be stronger or weaker in your opinion?

I'm in no way doubting your technique, I'm just a perfectionist and want to know the best (strongest) way to build my tank. I know there is "more than one way to skin a cat" I just want to know the best way. And it seems that all three of these techniques (yours and the two I post) have a valid point.

Again thanks for all the help, Jimmy
Make sure that you don't use import cell cast. Polycast would be good.

Let's discuss this age old debate on solvent or 2-part cementing (Weldon 40)

I've studied the difference most my adult life. and solvent does win. 80-90 percent of professional aquarium buiders (Big company's) will agree.

Tanks let go often with 2-part cement, It does not merge the piece well. It cements them together more then welding them together,

The reason some manufacturer prefer it is because it fills in the gaps and requires less edge preparation to get a clear bubblefree seam.

Solvent gluing requires practically a flawless edge to get a perfect seam, but it is very strong.

Some fabricators using just Weldon 4, do not melt as well with cast acrylic, (it is harder and denser). You should mix it to slow down the contraction process.AS long as that is done it is much stronger. That is not just my opinion.

The sheet manufacturers always have said that about 2-part, but they probably have never built an aquarium, forget 1000's of tanks like me and my fellow professional aquarium manufacturers.

Never use two part on import cast acrylic, I've experimented with that and after 6 months the seams degrigate and do let go very often.

If you know what you are doing and cut a good angle to allow a lot of Weldon 40 (2 -part) to go in and you use polycast, I've know professionals that have had good success.

Ask Clarity Plus, Sea Kleer, Tenecor, what they use?


Keep on fabricating, Sincerely, Acrylicman
  #70  
Old 08/05/2002, 07:54 PM
Acrylicman Acrylicman is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by JRF
Acrylicman,
Thanks for the info! The tank is going to be built by a professional and well-known tank manufacturer. One engineer says that 3/4" all the way around is plenty while another engineer at the same company says 1" in required. Again, this is from a very popular tank company. So I became a bit confused and worried. I don't want the tank to bow so I decided to ask your opinion. Also, going with 1" material will add $1000 to the price I'm sure! Now, this tank I am speaking of is not a standard rectangle, it has a vertical side on the left and an angle on the right side ( it will be going against a stairway wall, so the angle on one end will match the stairway wall slope ). So actually, the top plate will only be 68.5" long and the bottom plate 99" long with the angle meeting the two ( make sense? ). So the front and back panels are not actually a full 99" / 30" with that angle cut. I also feel that 3/4" material would be sufficient.
Should I require a 1" top plate to be sure the tank does not bow? Or will a 3/4" top plate be sufficient?
Thanks again
JRF
Yes, I believe I understand, Generally bends add more strength. Your main thing to look for is the expanse of the front, (which is less) and the expanse of the top (which is less)
The overall gallons plays into it a little bit. (which is less.

It sounds like this manufacturer may be a little nervous himself on such an odd shape tank. It could be built out of 1/2". without a problem.
There would be a little bow. 3/4" might have a slight bow, but that is perfectly normal.

If you want to be overly cautious use a one inch top, but it is really overkill, for a scaled down 300 gallon tank.

Take care! acrylicman

If he won't do it for you ,contact me, I'll do it and fully warranty it.

Keep on fabricating!
  #71  
Old 08/05/2002, 08:04 PM
Acrylicman Acrylicman is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by piperld
Hey guys,

Glad you're here Acrylicman.
Few questions for ya

Acrylicman - "I do not recommended any project that water is involved with,extruded materials. You are asking for trouble down the road."

I know there can be many factors but generalize for me.
How far down the road are we talking about?
Years, months, weeks?

What kind of trouble?
Structural or visual?

Do you know if large scale manufactures use extruded acrylic for sumps,skimmers,reactors etc?

Is there a simple way to identify cast and extruded?

Thanks
The first day you may see some crazing (more than with cast).

Then it usually is a steady progression. It will get white and cloudy. It depends on the quality of machining, the fabricators technique and type of extruded material. Also the type of solvents and whether or not it has been flame polished.

Often the less expensive skimmers etc are done with extruded tubing. Usually the seams etc. are much less quality.

As far as telling. It is comparative . There is a difference in almost every aspect of fabrication between cast and extruded.

From smell, to the way it cut,to how it glues, to how it bends and flames, to how it reacts with solvent etc.

If you have no reference or comparison it might be difficult.

Does it still have paper on it, Ask what the brand is.

That would be the best way.

Sincerely, Acrylicman
  #72  
Old 08/05/2002, 08:07 PM
Acrylicman Acrylicman is offline
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Re: Re: Acrylicman:

Quote:
Originally posted by Acrylicman


Make sure that you don't use import cell cast. Polycast would be good.

Let's discuss this age old debate on solvent or 2-part cementing (Weldon 40)

I've studied the difference most my adult life. and solvent does win. 80-90 percent of professional aquarium buiders (Big company's) will agree.

Tanks let go often with 2-part cement, It does not merge the piece well. It cements them together more then welding them together,

The reason some manufacturer prefer it is because it fills in the gaps and requires less edge preparation to get a clear bubblefree seam.

Solvent gluing requires practically a flawless edge to get a perfect seam, but it is very strong.

Some fabricators using just Weldon 4, do not melt as well with cast acrylic, (it is harder and denser). You should mix it to slow down the contraction process.AS long as that is done it is much stronger. That is not just my opinion.

The sheet manufacturers always have said that about 2-part, but they probably have never built an aquarium, forget 1000's of tanks like me and my fellow professional aquarium manufacturers.

Never use two part on import cast acrylic, I've experimented with that and after 6 months the seams degrigate and do let go very often.

If you know what you are doing and cut a good angle to allow a lot of Weldon 40 (2 -part) to go in and you use polycast, I've know professionals that have had good success.

Ask Clarity Plus, Sea Kleer, Tenecor, what they use?


Keep on fabricating, Sincerely, Acrylicman



P.S.

The first 3 years I built tanks out of my house, I put a bead of Weldon16 in the seams. I sure felt better. It won't hurt.

Weldon 40 would be better.

Sincerely, Acrylicman
  #73  
Old 08/05/2002, 09:38 PM
jimichonga jimichonga is offline
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Re: Re: Re: Acrylicman:

Quote:
Originally posted by Acrylicman





P.S.

The first 3 years I built tanks out of my house, I put a bead of Weldon16 in the seams. I sure felt better. It won't hurt.

Weldon 40 would be better.

Sincerely, Acrylicman
Would you add the bead after the edge is dry or while it is still "wet"?
Also you said "You should mix it to slow down the contraction process." Do you mean to mix-in some acrylic with the solvent or to just stir the solvent a little?

Thanks again for helping us out. Jimmy
  #74  
Old 08/05/2002, 09:43 PM
Flanelcamel Flanelcamel is offline
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Hi Acrylicman, I have a question regaurding repairs to acrylic. I built a 375g tank for a customer out of 3/4", set it up in his house and then pulled the masking. Right in the center of the front panel was a peice of debris in the casting! I got the supplier to pay for the tank and I built a new one for the customer. Now I have this tank in my shop and am in the process of repairing it. I routed out the defect and it left a 1" by about 1/8" deep hole. I have been practicing filling scrap peices and have had some luck with mc bond thickened up a little. Everything else I use seems to develope bubbles as it dries. Repeted thin layers of fill work, but take forever. Got any experience or suggestions for me? I could put a new front on it, but prefer the chalange of fixing it!
Thanks!
Ray
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  #75  
Old 08/06/2002, 12:36 AM
piperld piperld is offline
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Thanks anyway

Last edited by piperld; 08/07/2002 at 05:15 PM.
 

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