5 gal water bottle skimmer? - Page 4

douggiestyle · #76 02/18/2006, 11:11 PM

needs more power, needs smaller bubbles, needs refined.

it works

great idea prugs

kentrob11 · #77 02/18/2006, 11:14 PM

What's the big cloud on the top?

Gem Tang Rider · #78 02/19/2006, 02:18 AM

douggiestyle
What pump are you using? Looks like thunder & lightning coming out of the top.

This next week I have some time off. Going to find a seal for the top of the 5gal jug. Make a nice slip off skimmer neck/cup assy.
I have 2 genx-2400 needle wheel pumps on order. When I get the pumps, then I'm going to start with the selecting some uniseals.

douggiestyle · #79 02/19/2006, 03:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kentrob11
What's the big cloud on the top?

i put a drop (really only a drop) of dish soap in it and thats what it made

mag 7 pump

xdusty6920 · #80 02/19/2006, 04:04 AM

cool pics. didnt catch any pics of the skimmers intake or the output from the skimmer.

dhnguyen · #81 02/19/2006, 04:12 AM

Hmm Maybe that's why your bubbles aren't small and not enough of them if you're testing in fresh water. I think you might get much better results if tested in salt water

D.

ChemE · #82 02/19/2006, 06:54 AM

You want the pump discharging to the bottom not the top of the reaction chamber. The pump inlet should draw from the top not bottom. And like D said, you have to test with salt.

douggiestyle · #83 02/19/2006, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dhnguyen
Hmm Maybe that's why your bubbles aren't small and not enough of them if you're testing in fresh water. I think you might get much better results if tested in salt water

D.

thats why i added the soapto generate more bubbles

douggiestyle · #84 02/19/2006, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by xdusty6920
cool pics. didnt catch any pics of the skimmers intake or the output from the skimmer.

there is no intake or output. this is beta

eshook · #85 02/19/2006, 10:49 AM

Soap will create soap bubbles but it wont have the same characteristics as if you tested it in salt water. The salt creates a different specific gravity that affects the bubbles. They have differnet back pressure and so on. So you *really* need to test with salt water instead of soap to get a true reading as to how it would work. If you had salt water you wouldn't get that bubble cloud on the top picture, which somewhat proves that the soap isn't a good substitution for salt.

douggiestyle · #86 02/19/2006, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ChemE
You want the pump discharging to the bottom not the top of the reaction chamber. The pump inlet should draw from the top not bottom. And like D said, you have to test with salt.

good suggestion but i copied this off euroreef and deltecs design.

ChemE · #87 02/19/2006, 11:06 AM

I'm guessing they use this sub-optimal approach because the pumps they use aren't able to fight the back pressure of the entire water column.

This is why I was suggesting feeding the NW with a cheap low power air pump (Whisper 60 draws 4.0 watts). This will allow the needlewheel to spend all of its energy recirculating/shreading. It's cheap to try, you might work that into your beta evaluation.

kentrob11 · #88 02/19/2006, 11:09 AM

Actually you have it right already- When the skimmer is running correctly, there will be denser concentrations of bubbles in the top half than the bottom half so on a recirculating skimmer, you want to draw from the bottom. You should try to make the return outlet back to the skimmer body as low as you can as well since you can't get inside the skimmer to place a 45 EL to direct the flow downward....

kentrob11 · #89 02/19/2006, 11:14 AM

Back pressure from the water column isn't a problem here- the column simply isn't high enough to present any issues. Sorry to be so disagreeable here but I've worked with this stuff personally and I'm just trying to save you some hassles is the process...

douggiestyle · #90 02/19/2006, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by eshook
Soap will create soap bubbles but it wont have the same characteristics as if you tested it in salt water. The salt creates a different specific gravity that affects the bubbles. They have differnet back pressure and so on. So you *really* need to test with salt water instead of soap to get a true reading as to how it would work. If you had salt water you wouldn't get that bubble cloud on the top picture, which somewhat proves that the soap isn't a good substitution for salt.

maybe if i refine the design i will test with salt. right now its disassembled in the basement. more or less the main question was whether or not this type of bottle would be willing to support the applications required to create a skimmer. and i think that i have proven this possibility. which was my initial goal. i currently have no use for this skimmer. the plans are in the making for a much larger tank in the future. at that point i would consider using a skimmer of this size. i do believe that two of those genx needle wheel pumps would work much better than my one mag7 and the genx would cost less. a better venturie would be in order. also the a bit of strengthening would be an asset. when i added the small amount of soap the inside of the skimmer body filled with micro bubbles and they rose up and out the top as required that was my only intention for adding the liquid soap and it did the job that i required. i was also impressed by how quickly the soap was processed and removed from the water.

one thing i should mention is that the fittings did start a slow leak (very slow). teflon tape is not enough. would definitely need a little jb weld. the fittings where strong enough to be able to carry the bottle completely full with water around with the fittings theselves. i originaly tested for leakes by attaching a tube in a closed loop between the two fittings this in effect became a handle with which i tested there strength.

douggiestyle · #91 02/19/2006, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kentrob11
Actually you have it right already- When the skimmer is running correctly, there will be denser concentrations of bubbles in the top half than the bottom half so on a recirculating skimmer, you want to draw from the bottom. You should try to make the return outlet back to the skimmer body as low as you can as well since you can't get inside the skimmer to place a 45 EL to direct the flow downward....

i did put an el directing the flow downward

tigerarmy40 · #92 02/19/2006, 11:20 AM

sweet that you tested lightly but man would I love to see someone trully build one of these things and make it work...

ChemE · #93 02/19/2006, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kentrob11
Back pressure from the water column isn't a problem here- the column simply isn't high enough to present any issues. Sorry to be so disagreeable here but I've worked with this stuff personally and I'm just trying to save you some hassles is the process...

No problem disagreeing with me; I disagree with you too. So long as we both are civil.

I don't see why drawing bubble rich water from the top of the skimmer would hinder performance in the slightest. More air would be injected and the existing bubbles would be further subdivided and the more air rich mixture would be ejected into the bottom of the reaction chamber forcing it to rise further than had it been ejected towards the top. This will lead to increased contact time and therefore increased protein extraction.

kentrob11 · #94 02/19/2006, 11:48 AM

Understood- One thing to consider is that a lot of research and testing has been done on this already by very reputable companies and ALL that are using recirculating technology in skimmers have decided on this method of mounting the pumps for a couple of reasons:

First, the neelewheel chops the bubbles up small enough that there is no real benefit to running them through again. A pin-point sized bubble isn't going to be chopped up any smaller with a 1/16-1/8 inch "needle" on the impeller assembly. It was proven that the most efficient way to run them was pulling water from the lowest point in the skimmer body and re-injecting it midway up the water column facing down so to start the refractionation process as far down in the body as possible while still allowing for a point for the recirculating pump to pull in clear water.

Second, as I stated before, MOST of the pumps out there being utilized for these applications cavitate at some point, meaning they can only take so much air before the pockets of air cause the impeller assembly to cease turning at the proper speed and choke, resulting in minimal water flow and lots of noise...If pulling from the top, where the water already has a higher concentration of air, the amount of air that will be pulled in from the outside will be smaller since there is already air inside the pump. Inevitably, you would have to dial back the air flow just a tad to compensate for this and this leads to a less efficient skimmer....

douggiestyle · #95 02/19/2006, 11:49 AM

i originaly felt the same as you cheme and was trying to figure a way to support the pump in that position. so i went to some skimmer web sites and saw that they were doing it this way. it also worked better for the design by not requiring the body of the skimmer suporting the pump weight. also on further speculation, if the buble filled discharge is being forced downward through the rising bubbles in the skimmer body logic says to me that this would create more contact time between the bubbles and water. i assume that this is euroreefs and deltecs logic.

rsteagall · #96 02/19/2006, 01:22 PM

Yea, you really need to get that thing hooked to a tank so you can properly test it. Don't get caught up in the venturi or needlewheel action. You can find tune that later. For testing, I'd suggest wood air difusers.... like 2-4 of them.

I'd really like to see this thing in action with saltwater attached to a real tank.

DrBDC · #97 02/19/2006, 01:31 PM

When I first came online today and saw the pic at the top I hadn't read it was soap. I was about to go throw out my skimmer!

douggiestyle · #98 02/19/2006, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DrBDC
When I first came online today and saw the pic at the top I hadn't read it was soap. I was about to go throw out my skimmer!

i was very nervous adding some liquid soap. thought for sure it would create a mess. i was very surprised how quickley that "thunder and lightning" (lol, thats exactly what it looks like) appeared, how dry it was and how quickly it stopped. hard to believe that about one drop of palmolive created all that foam. wanted to make sure there was enough air flow to blow the foam out as well as visualize the action in the skimmer body.

will make adjustments and try again. but for sure it works.

thinking about epoxying a piece of acrylic where each hole is drilled and tapping it for a better fit. dont have a tap that large but maybe the lhs will loan me thiers.

any ideas?

45 degree elbow vs 90 degree elbow 1/2" vs 3/4"

i think the key is to keep it simple. but still where are you going to get a 1' diameter acylic tube for free or more. heisted my bottles from work.

also not sure how to put in intake and return to tank. looked at other skimmers and am clueless at how they operate in that fashion. not sure what deltecs vent is for, etc..

kentrob11 · #99 02/19/2006, 02:24 PM

The intake needs to be about an inch below the interior water surface and preferably pointing downward with a 45EL. this is where the powerhead/pump will feed the skimmer. The outlet riser pipe needs to receive water from the lowest point of the skimmer body to ensure that as few microbubbles as possible make it back to the sump, hence the 90EL inside of the skimmer body pointing down. Here's a skimmer that I'm finishing up that shows the placement of the recirculating pump, skimmer feed and outlet riser pipe....It's a 6" x 15" body but the idea is the same....

douggiestyle · #**100** 02/19/2006, 03:35 PM

what is the pupose of the tee with the capped pipe at the outlet?

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