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  #26  
Old 07/07/2007, 01:02 PM
mr.wilson mr.wilson is offline
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Muriatic acid will work better than vinegar.
  #27  
Old 07/07/2007, 05:06 PM
Insane Reefer Insane Reefer is offline
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Muriatic has a lot of impurities in it. Vinegar is reef safe.
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  #28  
Old 07/07/2007, 05:08 PM
pito pito is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by pito
Has any one used this stuff to bond there DIY rocks?
http://www.quikrete.com/ProductLines...dhesivePro.asp
^
  #29  
Old 07/07/2007, 05:37 PM
Azazael13 Azazael13 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by mr.wilson
I've used it many times. It's basically white glue. It looks like white glue, it smells like white glue, and the instructions state that it can be used as...you guessed it, white glue.

The problem with white glue, is it's water soluble. I used it a few times to prime glass for cement bonding, but it dissolves as soon as you fill the tank. It does however, help bond rock together when mixed into cement. Yellow carpenters glue would work better, as it's water resistant.

Add some water and borax to the white glue and you have your own homemade slime (polymer).
^^

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  #30  
Old 07/07/2007, 07:09 PM
mr.wilson mr.wilson is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Insane Reefer
Muriatic has a lot of impurities in it. Vinegar is reef safe.
Hydrochloric acid is used for it's chemical composition as well as its' acidic nature. You won't get salt, water or Co2 from vinegar.

If you aren't satisfied with muriatic, then use hydrochloric grade. It's still dirt cheap without the impurities.
  #31  
Old 07/07/2007, 07:29 PM
Insane Reefer Insane Reefer is offline
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I had thought possibly to use HCL at one point, but am hesitant to throw it down the drain when it is used. I've used muriatic and probably will do so again, but simply to clean the faces of certain pieces I have done. For commercial rock I want to be able to say that I didn't cut corners or used inferior materials, that to the best of my ability, I used materials known to be safe in the aquarium.
I'll have to check at the local masonry supply - I've never noticed HCL at the big box stores, and online ordering carries a $25US "hazardous materials" charge
Finding it might be the limiting factor...
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  #32  
Old 07/07/2007, 07:39 PM
wooden_reefer wooden_reefer is offline
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Hello:

I am making live rock

I have bags of crushed coral and also a bag of crushed Oyster shell.

Would you take me apart of appearance what the differences are. What is the higher phosphate content of crushed oyster shell. What could be the source of the phosphrous in crushed oyster shell?

I went to Home Depot and Lowes, they sell Portand cement type II-V, not type I-II, can I use type II-V? What is the difference?

Thanks so much
  #33  
Old 07/07/2007, 10:29 PM
davepadilla davepadilla is offline
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Mr.Wilson: The reason they spray concrete like driveways and such is to aid in the curing process.
  #34  
Old 07/07/2007, 10:38 PM
Azazael13 Azazael13 is offline
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ok batch #2 is done, I am going to do a partial water change soon and use the old water in a 10 gallon I have setup in my garage to put the batch in, this will hopefully help the algae right? Do I need a filter running or just an air stone on the rocks?
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  #35  
Old 07/07/2007, 11:56 PM
spike78 spike78 is offline
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Insane Reefer,

Are you still baking your rocks? I've let my rocks sit now for 48 hours and am trying 2 different baking techniques.

In technique one, I took the rocks right from the mold box to the BBQ set on high for 3 hours. After that I let it soak for 2 hours.

In technique two, I took the rock from the molding box and went into a soak for 2 hours to pull out as much salt as I could. From there I went into the BBQ for 3 hours.

Right now it seems like technique 2 is working best as technique 1 rocks seem a little brittle. If you are still baking your rocks, what process are you using?

I'm using the following recipie: 1.5 parts cement:1 part oyster shell:3 parts salt.

Thanks,

Steve
  #36  
Old 07/08/2007, 01:49 AM
Insane Reefer Insane Reefer is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Azazael13
ok batch #2 is done, I am going to do a partial water change soon and use the old water in a 10 gallon I have setup in my garage to put the batch in, this will hopefully help the algae right? Do I need a filter running or just an air stone on the rocks?
Which rock is this Az? Jiffy Rock or Traditional?
Just fishing for an update on the Jiffy Rock you made

Either way, what you plan sounds fine - just keep the lighting low for a while and it seems to help. Air is enough.
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  #37  
Old 07/08/2007, 02:03 AM
Insane Reefer Insane Reefer is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by spike78
[B]Insane Reefer,

Are you still baking your rocks?
Yes, I am - it seems to work, and I usually get rock that is pH 9 or less in 1 week to 10 days.

Quote:
Right now it seems like technique 2 is working best as technique 1 rocks seem a little brittle. If you are still baking your rocks, what process are you using?
Technique two seems to be working for you better because it did - you are saturating the rock with moisture before baking it - moisture is vital to the hydration process. The other rock dried out too quickly as the heat just sucked it out. Try adding a tin can or 2 of really hot water next time, and leave the salt in the rock until after the bake. Also close all the vents on your BBQ.

I get the best results the sooner I bake - between 18 and 24 hours after casting, usually. I keep my temp at around 450°F, and keep a pan of water in with it to provide moisture, I also bake them for 4-6 hours, depending on the size of the rocks. The vinegar bath should follow the salt release. For the bath, try 3 days in 2 cups of vinegar to each gallon of water - you just need to cover the rocks with the solution. Rinse really well after they have sat, and refill the bin and allow to sit over-night, then drain. I then finish out the kure, a week or so with a couple of water changes.
I am going to try one rock, right after the acid bath, to see what it does to a test tank, just for curiosities sake.
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  #38  
Old 07/08/2007, 02:45 AM
spike78 spike78 is offline
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IR,

I just checked my technique 2 rocks again now. It's like 3 hours after bake. Those rocks are strong as heck. The ones I baked first are nowhere close.

I baked the rocks in an old gas BBQ I had running it full blast. I recon I'm running about 450 maybe 500. I put a steel bowl of water in there for moisture.

Do you think it's worth keeping my technique 1 rocks? I don't want to put too much work into them if they are just going to end up failing. Do you think the backing permanently damaged the cure? These rocks are cheap so maybe it's worth just tossing them.


Thanks,

Steve

Last edited by spike78; 07/08/2007 at 02:50 AM.
  #39  
Old 07/08/2007, 07:32 AM
Neptune777 Neptune777 is offline
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I made a ton of rock yesterday using the old school recipe. I'm not going to bake them but rather let them air cure for a month or so before soaking. Do you mist or spray the rocks periodically during this air cure to aid in the curing process or do you just let them dry out?
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  #40  
Old 07/08/2007, 09:42 AM
Insane Reefer Insane Reefer is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by spike78

Do you think it's worth keeping my technique 1 rocks?
Almost everyone ends up with a few rocks that don't turn out. I really can't tell without seeing them, but if you feel they are too brittle, I wouldn't use them. If waste bothers you, break these up and reuse the rubble in the next few batches of rock you make.
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  #41  
Old 07/08/2007, 09:45 AM
Insane Reefer Insane Reefer is offline
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Neptune, mist them every few days - moister is better. I find that putting the rock in black garbage bags, outside in the heat (but not in the sun) works really well.
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  #42  
Old 07/08/2007, 09:53 AM
Insane Reefer Insane Reefer is offline
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It will be interesting to hear back from Sunkool, who was also going to try a batch of Jiffy Rock out in his BBQ/Smoker.

I have wondered how real flame would effect the bakes; flame is a harsher heat then an electric element, and it may be possible that providing enough moisture during the bake could prove to be difficult.
It is one reason I have been hesitant to built an outdoor baker - I would prefer electric, but am having trouble figuring out how to wire the electric in such a way that the wires won't melt from the heat generated in the barrel. Propane would be ever so much easier, and can get the parts to build it at Walmart for about $30, but don't want to waste money and effort if the end result isn't what I am hoping for.

Just curious Steve, How much propane did you use for your bakes?
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  #43  
Old 07/08/2007, 09:54 AM
Azazael13 Azazael13 is offline
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IR the project rocks (group 3 for me) are entering the PH testing stage. Tomorrow is the first PH test.
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  #44  
Old 07/08/2007, 10:13 AM
Insane Reefer Insane Reefer is offline
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Awesome, AZ
Have you made rock before? If so, how did this compare for you? Are you pleased so far with the rocks? If your end pH is in the 9 range, would you say this method was worth it, as far as effort put forth and in time/water saved? Granted, the testing phase will make this take longer then it will once I'm certain most people will get the same results, and we feel that the long term testing isn't really necessary anymore, but I've been able to finish the kure in a week or so with a few water changes in the rock I've been doing lately, where I skip the testing phase - I've only had a few rocks that took as long as 2 weeks to do, from cast to finish.
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  #45  
Old 07/08/2007, 11:30 AM
Neptune777 Neptune777 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Insane Reefer
Neptune, mist them every few days - moister is better. I find that putting the rock in black garbage bags, outside in the heat (but not in the sun) works really well.

Thanks....this is my first try at official reef rock. It is very brittle now but I assume it will harden up considerably as it cures in the next couple weeks?

Also, on the subject of Perlite..... I did a TDS test on the stuff today. My tap water has 147ppm as is.....after my RO/DI unit I am at zero. I filled three plastic cups (one with tap, 2 with RODI and tested TDS on all three to make sure I get the same #'s. One RODI cup was used to rinse off particles from the perlite so I could test the chunks after they soak in the other RODI cup for 1/2 hour. I am surprised at the initial results.........Both the RODI rinse/prewash and the "official" soak cup still register ZERO TDS after 1/2 hour with the perlite. I will leave them overnight and test again tomorrow.
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  #46  
Old 07/08/2007, 12:35 PM
nietzsche nietzsche is offline
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whoaa, this thread has changed a lot. so when after i make the rock, let it sit for a week or so, then it put it water.. does it have to be in tap water or r/o water? when i test it it has to be in r/o water?
  #47  
Old 07/08/2007, 02:38 PM
spike78 spike78 is offline
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Quote:
[B[
Just curious Steve, How much propane did you use for your bakes? [/B]
I basically had the BBQ running full blast for 6 hours. I recon I ran through half a tank of propane. My burners are busted on that BBQ so it's basically cooking on an open flame. I had a little blackening in spots on the underside of the rock (it came right off) but I'm REALLY HAPPY with the way my technique 2 rocks turned out. My technique 1 rocks are going in the garbage.

It basically took me 3 batches to get to the point where I'm happy with my process. I'll try and take some pictures of the rock I made yesterday and post them. I'm probably going to run another batch today. Just need more salt .

If these rocks cure OK, I think I'd REALLY recommend baking the rocks if you have the means. It gives you pretty quick feedback if the mix you used is going to work and seems to make the rocks extremely strong.
  #48  
Old 07/08/2007, 05:44 PM
mr.wilson mr.wilson is offline
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A propane BBQ will give you the Co2 and water you need for a quick cure.
  #49  
Old 07/08/2007, 06:12 PM
customcolor customcolor is offline
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y dont you just put a batch in a fire pit or a fire place instead of burning up your propane.
  #50  
Old 07/08/2007, 07:32 PM
spike78 spike78 is offline
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By using the BBQ I can close off the cooking area as much as possible and keep the cooking area humid. As well, the area I live in has a burn ban in effect which makes a fire pit a no/go.
 

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