The Ultimate DIY Rocks!

[kwaters]

Thanks much. I did pick out much of the gravel in the quickrete. I made a small batch and dumped some in a mold and plopped a few piles on a old piece of acrylic. No big loss if it doesn't turn out.

Question: Does conceret stick to aluminum foil?

Kris

[GuySmilie]

Curing concrete is very caustic (pH 12-14) and will probably attack a single thin layer of aluminum foil; depending on how it is in contact with it.
Guy

[GuySmilie]

OK kwaters, here is some follow-up info I promised you.

The stuff I got at Menards is called Roberts Stone Mortar Mix.
Here is what it looks like.




This is a batch I did several weeks ago curing in a vat of water. If you look closely at the water, you see what looks like a 'moire' distortion to the picture, but it's actually a scum floating on the soak water. This is the stuff you get rid of by doing the long cure before going into the aquarium. Also note the area highlighted by the blue circle. This is the rock salt precipitating out of the rock (still very obvious 3 weeks later).




Here is a closer view of the area marked in the above picture.
It's a bit out of focus as the camera was focusing on the water surface instead of the rocks below.




This was a brand new container when I first put the rocks in for their soaking period.
That stuff wont hardly come off without really scraping at it.
It's almost etched into the container.




This was the last batch I did. Mainly three flat arches to be used for a rock base to build upon in my 58g.
The piece on the far left is from a couple I did in the batch before last. They are almost ready to test for pH.




This is a tighter shot of above




Since this post contains too many pix, I am splitting it.
Continued on the next one.
Guy

[GuySmilie]

---- continued from previous post ----

These two pieces are from the batch before last. I don't know why they turned out lighter in color than the last batch but they did. They are also a lot more dense (heavier) than the last ones. I used the same ingredients and the same ratios, so who knows why. One thing I did on the one piece is to sprinkle some crushed oyster shell on it right after I cast them....just to see how that would work. Don't know if I like it or not.




Here is a tighter shot of the above. You can better see the oyster shell here.




You will notice that the salt really opens up the surface of the rock. Plenty of bacteria breeding grounds on this stuff!




A tighter shot of the porosity of the rock.




Here's a few pounds of rubble pieces. These will wind up in the bottom of the refugium area.




These are what I use to do my casting. This one is a cheap poly mixing vat found in the masonary supplies at the stores. I also use poly dish pans like the bus boys use in restaurants. Cheap, durable, and weatherproof. Although this one has been sitting out in the rain and the Forsythia blossoms are falling into it. That is crushed calcium poultry feed supplement in there under the rainwater. Looks and feels like very fine gray sand.




Anyway, that's the scoop on the masonry mix. For me it cuts out an extra step in the process, is easier to lug around due to less weight, and the cost is not out of line. I don't remember the exact cost but it was something like $7 or so.

My recipe is equal amounts of masonry cement and rock salt. First I mix the cement with clean water to get it to the consistency of dry cottage cheese. Then I add an equal amount of rock salt and thoroughly mix it all together.

I still do not like the color but that is really a trivial point that several of us on here fret about. Once this stuff goes into the aquarium for a few months it will be a totally different color anyway.

So there you have it!
Guy

[Travis L. Stevens]

Thanks for the detailed pics/writeup GuySmilie! FWIW, the gunk that is coming from the rocks and what is stuck on the inside of the Kuring vat are Calcium deposits. When the salt comes out of the rocks, it is completely dissolved in the water and you can't see it. This tends to be a sign that the water in the kuring vat has reached a saturation point because the Ca(OH)2 is visibly seen.

[goldmaniac]

the Saturation Point and Deposits statement that Travis just menioned explains what I"ve been seeing:
I run my RO unit for a week or two at a time and store about 300 gallons in clean trash cans and 5-gal buckets. during this time of making RODI water, I had the runoff water, which usually just goes down the stationary/utility tub, instead going into a 5-gallon bucket holding my initial test pieces.

Since there was always a slow incoming supply of fresh water for the Kure, I never saw these deposits everyone's been talking about. I was looking for it, but with a constant, slow change in the Kuring water, the rock is clean and so's the bucket.

I haven't started a Kure on my two batches I've made, my 1st batch is 2 weeks Cured at this point, and my 2nd is only 3 days. I'm just letting the MMLR harden before the H2O Kuring begins.

[Yinepu]

Originally posted by GuySmilie
---- continued from previous post ----

These two pieces are from the batch before last. I don't know why they turned out lighter in color than the last batch but they did. They are also a lot more dense (heavier) than the last ones. I used the same ingredients and the same ratios, so who knows why.

I know you said you used the same ratio... but I noticed over the weekend that the rocks I made with salt in them were darker in color when they dried than the ones without the salt... and the ones with more salt in them were darker than ones with a smaller amount of salt...

I'm not sure why that is (maybe a chemistry minded individual could figure it out).. I just assumed that the salt reacted with something in the mix...

IF there was more salt in your first batch.. that would also explain why they were lighter in weight as well... (once the salt dissolved they would weigh less)...

I still need to get around to posting my recipe and try and take some pics! (ok.. so I have been busy... lol...)

[GuySmilie]

Thanks Trav.
I knew the scale build-up was caused by precipitated calcium, but I was under the impression that the 'snot-looking' stuff was actually the sodium chloride leaching out and collecting in the low spots.
I never took chemistry in school, as you can tell
Guy

[GuySmilie]

Originally posted by Yinepu
I know you said you used the same ratio... but I noticed over the weekend that the rocks I made with salt in them were darker in color when they dried than the ones without the salt... and the ones with more salt in them were darker than ones with a smaller amount of salt...

IF there was more salt in your first batch.. that would also explain why they were lighter in weight as well... (once the salt dissolved they would weigh less)...

Well I understand your point, but I was pretty careful about the measurements I used. There most likely was more or less salt in one batch compared to the other, but it would have been minimal. I don't think enough to make such a difference as shown. Irregardless, it sure beats $6/lb + freight
Guy

[Yinepu]

Originally posted by GuySmilie
Irregardless, it sure beats $6/lb + freight
Guy

lol.. I have to agree with that!

[Scuba_Steve]

Well after a few days of reading 84 pages, and about 2100 posts i finally made it through this. It will be quite a while till I can make my own, but definitely another step to lowering the cost of my new reef. Great work everyone! Now for a few questions......

1. And I hate to ask this as its been asked a million times, but there was never a solid answer. Quikrete portland cement. This appears to be just straight portland cement, but it seems that people have issues with it. For some it is the only thing available. I dont know if this is the case for me, as I have no way of checking currently. Is this an inferior portland? Different composition? Or am I just reading into things to much?

2. How much are the acrylic fortifiers, and where can they be commonly found? Ive heard they increase costs quite a bit, and have to be used in place of 50% of the used water, but no info on actual price.

3. Powdered limestone. This seems like a good alternative for sand as its cheaper than aragonite, and obviously better suited than a silica sand. But I have read no one who has actually used it. Can someone try it out and give some aesthetic test results?

4. 2 experiments were brought up a while back, and never completed. These are both pretty simple so I dont know why they have not been done, and can actually be done together. Someone take 2 very similar sized pieces of rock out of their aquarium, one diy, one figi. Weight them both immediately. Let them sit out for a few days until the stop draining. Note how long each took to stop. Weight again. Then crack them both open to look for the anaerobic rings. Take pictures.

Again, thanks for all the work everyone!

Rock on!

[Travis L. Stevens]

1) As far as I know, it's still portland cement, but sold/made/shipped by the company Quikrete

2) Beats me. I don't use them or have an interest in it, so I haven't done any research on it

3) I've used it. It's the same results as regular aragonite sand. I didn't think that it was worth posting detailed results because they were so close to each other.

4) It's on my to do list, but it's low on it, too. I have larger fish to fry at the moment, sorry. At least "Moving" is checked off now

[airinhere]

I have been folowing this thread for a while. I made some aragocrete rock walls for my two 90 gal and my 120 gal tanks. They fit snug against the glass and contour perfectly around my overflows. I love them and have decided to add some pillars for me to mount corals onto. Here are my pillars.
spare background piece

first generation tower vs later effort

two towers that I want to improve the base on

another first gen and later effort

two second gen efforts

I am using 5 gallon buckets and small garbage cans to make these. I line the bottom with plastic sheeting and then build the shape I want slowly one handful at a time. I fill the buckets with rocksalt as I increase the height of the towers. Slowly they build up to pretty good height. I am still working out how to make the base more natural (their flat bottomed) and still keep their stability.

[airinhere]

This is the 120 gal anemone tank I am setting up. Rock was just put in last week and I am preparing to add sand. I am adding a few of my towers this weekend and will pull some of the front rocks that are in there right now. My two 90 gal tanks are both about three months into cycling and I am just now getting the hair algae under control. I might post pics later, but only after I get the rock looking nice. Oh and the 90 gal tanks have little spots of coraline algae popping up everywhere. This will make three reefs that use all aragocrete in the display area. Only oceanic live rock visible is small, choice pieces to seed coraline. All my old live rock now lives in my sumps.

This rock wall lies flat against the back glass and contours around my overflow. it consists of 5 pieces stacked side by side. I cant wait till its cycled and ready for stocking.

[GuySmilie]

Nice work airinhere!
That first pic looks very light colored. What did you use?
Also, what is causing the tan colored highlights on the other pieces?
Guy

[airinhere]

Thank you. I am using Lehigh white cement, portland type 1. Aragonite sand and plenty of Diamond solar salts extra coarse crystal. The first pic is of a recently made piece about to be put into water for the first time. The other pics are brownish from sitting outside in my pond for the last three weeks. I will give them a brief acid bath in 10% murriatic acid for a day to get them gleaming white again.

[thriceanangel]

Anyone done any air cure vs wet FW cure ph tests? Just wondering, I haven't been following for a while, but read somewhere here that the portland will cure faster in the air vs immersing it in water?

[Insane Reefer]

Nice work everyone Awesome to get some pics!

Steve, Quikcrete is just portland, plus the needed aggregates, however the aggregates are typically brown sand and pea gravel - not so great to look at, but it does work. If you are having trouble locating plain portland, call your local masonry supplies - I know you have them in TX, and they often have exactly what is needed.
As far as limestone goes, I haven't been able to find any locally - my HD doesn't stock it Maybe Travis will post a SKU or product number for the Pavestone they have in OK.
And try this link if you are thinking of additives - most of us have avoided them, I think, so we don't really have info to post...
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=993625
These guys can probably answer any of your questions.

Airinhere, very nice work. Don't you love the Lehigh white? I find it kures a bit quicker - has this been the case for you too? I also like the "porcelain" like texture - this stuff gets hard!

Thriceanangel, I am now leaving my rock out dry for a month before kuring. I do release the salt, which also seems to help with the final strength, but once the salt is gone from a 2 day hot water soak (usually at day 7), I take it out and let it set in a plastic bag and forget it until the magical "day 28". Typical kuring in a RO waste barrel is about 3 weeks.

HTH

[goldmaniac]

Originally posted by Insane Reefer

Thriceanangel, I am now leaving my rock out dry for a month before kuring. I do release the salt, which also seems to help with the final strength, but once the salt is gone from a 2 day hot water soak (usually at day 7), I take it out and let it set in a plastic bag and forget it until the magical "day 28". Typical kuring in a RO waste barrel is about 3 weeks.

HTH [/B]

I'm following Insane's lead, 7 day curing, wash out the salt for a day, and now I'm sticking all rock driping wet, into an empty trashcan w/ lid. I'll be waiting a few weeks, as well, to start the H20 Kure to get the pH down to 8.0

Will post soon - my 2nd of two batches was 7 days old yesterday, I'm flushing out the majority of salt, now...

-G.

[Fishboy1230]

Originally posted by thriceanangel
Anyone done any air cure vs wet FW cure ph tests? Just wondering, I haven't been following for a while, but read somewhere here that the portland will cure faster in the air vs immersing it in water?

I think you might have read that they cure(harden) the rock in air, then put in into the Kuring(ph lowering) water filled vats.

If not, im always interested in new ideas!

[Travis L. Stevens]

Originally posted by Fishboy1230
I think you might have read that they cure(harden) the rock in air, then put in into the Kuring(ph lowering) water filled vats.

If not, im always interested in new ideas!

Nope, a while back, I believe it was Insane Reefer, posted an email conversation or an article about C-S-H bonds and some other stuff that basically stated, that if given enough time to sit, the Ca(OH)2, the chemical that causes the high pH, will eventually bond with the silicates making the rocks essentially balanced. How long it takes for it to Cure vs. Kure is still not tested.

[thriceanangel]

Yeah. I had read that and I guess it was Insane Reefer.

I know that you have to release the salt in the water. But I have had some rock that has just been sitting for around a month and a half, and I was wondering if I soaked it for a couple days to dissolve the salt, would the Calcium Hydroxide already be bonded to the silicates, and I could just have it go into the tank. I guess the only way to know is to saok it and test pH if nobody has done it.

[Travis L. Stevens]

Yup. Noone knows at the moment if the dey curing will work for our purposes. Only one way to find out, you little guinea pig, you

[Yinepu]

Originally posted by airinhere

I am using 5 gallon buckets and small garbage cans to make these. I line the bottom with plastic sheeting and then build the shape I want slowly one handful at a time. I fill the buckets with rocksalt as I increase the height of the towers. Slowly they build up to pretty good height. I am still working out how to make the base more natural (their flat bottomed) and still keep their stability.

How long are you leaving them in the buckets of salt before removing them?

[Insane Reefer]

Hey
It was me that posted the email conversation about curing, etc. Given enough time, the cement will kure on its own - no water needed, but this is a lot longer than "day 28" - I did a test several pages back, and discovered that at day 28, pH was at 10 (down from 12/13 at casting) - which seems to echo the water kuring timeframe. The main benefit of air kuring is that air is free, water costs.
But no matter how you do it, there will always need at least a week or two to kure in water before using it, it is just a matter of hundreds of gallons or a few gallons...

But lets face it folks. This isn't a "quick" project. Unless you are willing to use cement additives that provide an "instant set" and hence a very sort kure time, you are looking at a 6 week minimum wait - wet or dry. Maybe there is a quicker way to kure it - I myself am very intrigued by "baking" the rock. Cement brick and block companies bake their wares at 400°F for a few hours to accomplish what normally takes "28 days". My concern is that there may be toxic fumes released. Anyone want to hazard an answer for that?