Lets talk about Vodka/sugar dosing

[jessezm]

Very interesting findings, and encouraging

[MiddletonMark]

Originally posted by mesocosm
For example, when we use terms like "RTN" or "STN", are we talking about tissue necrosis (death of cells), or zooxanthellae expulsion ("bleaching")? If we're talking about tips that "go white" and later recover ... we were really talking about zooxanthellae expulsion. If we're talking about "burnt tips" that preceed a specimen's decline ... we were really talking about cellular death.

I respectfully suggest that such distinctions are important, and that taking a few extra moments to make the distinction will help immensely ...

I think this is a very important point as well, as the distinction points at two very different things going on with the coral.

To lump together will just muddy the issue, and IMO these discussions can get muddy enough as-is.

Anyway - recession/tissue loss vs. zoox expulsion is an important distinction IMO/IME, and clarity on this issue [whether this topic or other Acropora-related] sure helps.

[stony_corals]

I've been getting some brownish smear on the glass the past couple of days, and have noticed as few corals going pastel on me. I'm changing a couple of things, I'll attempt to measure the food and increase it, decrease the vodka (right around 7ml now), and I've added a UV filter to the tank.... Still adding aminos daily.

Tank params (measured last night) 500ppm Ca, 1500ppm Mg, Alk 11 dkh, PO4 0ppm, NO3 0 ppm. Everything with Salifert, except, Alk (LaMotte), NO3 (LaMotte), and PO4 (Deltec/Merck).

[SDguy]

Neither my feeding not water change schedule/amount has changed, yet I am seeing much better tip growth, crazy PE, slowed/stopped basal recession.

And most important, and the reason I began all this in the first place, I'm starting to see some really nice colors returning. I'll be getting my camera back today, so hopefully I can post some progression shots.

Tank parameters are as follows:

9 dKH
455 ppm Ca
1350 ppm Mg
80.6F
1.022 salinity (hmm, normally keep that higher, but have been selling a lot of frags and only filling with topoff water)
8.09pH
390 ORP

[GSMguy]

Originally posted by SDguy
Neither my feeding not water change schedule/amount has changed, yet I am seeing much better tip growth, crazy PE, slowed/stopped basal recession.

And most important, and the reason I began all this in the first place, I'm starting to see some really nice colors returning. I'll be getting my camera back today, so hopefully I can post some progression shots.

ive been doing the vodka about as long as you i think and i am having the same results, i am dosing zeobak also. are you dosing a bak source?

[SDguy]

No, I have not been dosing a bac source. I'm unconvinced of the mono-bac theory

[GSMguy]

Originally posted by SDguy
No, I have not been dosing a bac source. I'm unconvinced of the mono-bac theory

i was getting a bacterial sludge/slime building up on high flow areas that is gone, but if you are not experiencing that...

[SDguy]

I should clarify...I'm not convinced that a bacterial bloom from too much vodka is anything more than just that, too much vodka.....little, if anything to do with strains of bacteria.

[stony_corals]

I'm in agreement with you Peter that the monoculture is most likely FUD. I doubt anyone would speed the $$$ to prove this scientifically. The question remains though whether there are bacteria cycles that result in a few strains reducing the diversity, and what that impact is (old tank syndrome?!?). I don't think hobbyists can further this, well, at least I'm incapable of doing so.... FWIW, I am dosing a source of bac....

[fatboyz]

Originally posted by GSMguy
i was getting a bacterial sludge/slime building up on high flow areas that is gone, but if you are not experiencing that...

I was also getting the same thing when I was trying the ultralith system. As I understand it, it was from dosing to much carbon and when I reduced the carbon dosage it went away. I was also dosing bac at the time. Right now am dosing sugar as weekly maintenance to jump start my skimmer. You guys might want to look at doing some research on potassium. From what I have read you can have problems with potassium being to low and causing stn/rtn with bac systems. Just food for thought. good luck

[hahnmeister]

I have been looking into it myself for other reasons. I was using Ultraligh 'organic' which contains potassium (as well as other things like iron, mg, etc). Anyways, I did notice some corals really seemed to color in well with this (and being that most of the other ingredients I already have added to the system through other chemicals, the K really seems to be the factor). So I am going to be getting potassium chloride and iodide. I even have a lab buddy who has offered scientific grade pure potassium if I want it. I do intend to investigate this further though, but first, I dont want to do it blindly, so I was going to get a K test kit to monitor it (I have some other things I would like to get from KZ as well, so I figure what the heck... I'll do an entire order from one of their dealers).

But thanks for bringing it up. By luck, I will be tinkering with the K levels, but I wouldnt have thought it was related otherwise.

[GSMguy]

Originally posted by SDguy
I should clarify...I'm not convinced that a bacterial bloom from too much vodka is anything more than just that, too much vodka.....little, if anything to do with strains of bacteria.

ah well i reduced dosage greatly and took a few days off of dosing and then resumed, i will admit i was over dosing.

[Flint&Eric]

2nd day back to full blown vodka+sugar dosing...love the crystal clear water. makes the fish look their floating

[jamesdawson]

Originally posted by hahnmeister
I have been looking into it myself for other reasons. I was using Ultraligh 'organic' which contains potassium (as well as other things like iron, mg, etc). Anyways, I did notice some corals really seemed to color in well with this (and being that most of the other ingredients I already have added to the system through other chemicals, the K really seems to be the factor). So I am going to be getting potassium chloride and iodide. I even have a lab buddy who has offered scientific grade pure potassium if I want it. I do intend to investigate this further though, but first, I dont want to do it blindly, so I was going to get a K test kit to monitor it (I have some other things I would like to get from KZ as well, so I figure what the heck... I'll do an entire order from one of their dealers).

But thanks for bringing it up. By luck, I will be tinkering with the K levels, but I wouldnt have thought it was related otherwise.

Good luck getting a readable idea of your potassium from the KZ kit. I finally gave up on mine as it is so hard to quantify the level your water is at. I'm eagerly awaiting one of the new Fauna Marin test kits as I understand its alot more readable and includes a reference.

Anyways, I too have found that adding UltraOrganic has made a big difference in the colors and growth of my reef. Supplementing Potassium must have something to do with it when running a bacterial export based filtration system, be it zeolith or vodka/sugar based.

James

[fatboyz]

Originally posted by jamesdawson
Good luck getting a readable idea of your potassium from the KZ kit. I finally gave up on mine as it is so hard to quantify the level your water is at. I'm eagerly awaiting one of the new Fauna Marin test kits as I understand its alot more readable and includes a reference.

Anyways, I too have found that adding UltraOrganic has made a big difference in the colors and growth of my reef. Supplementing Potassium must have something to do with it when running a bacterial export based filtration system, be it zeolith or vodka/sugar based.

James

I place local to me just got the fauna marin test kits in so am going to try to get one this weekend. Another thing to remember is that when you are lowering the nutrients you have to start feeding the sps. As the the nutrients become low the corals food source changes from getting its energy from the zooxanthellae to having to catch it in the water. This is why when you are using zeovit or ultralith they have food additives. When people say that these bac methods stave the corals, well thats not true when it is done correctly. Your starving the zooxanthellae and feeding the coral directly. Am sure many of you already know this but I thought I would throw that out there.

[SDguy]

A couple update pics.....

This coral was solid brown prior to vodka dosing...




My tricolors tips are completely healed:

[melev]

And I thought I would have to drink the vodka to see those colors!

[Leopard Man]

I dosed 4.5 mls of vodka (90 proof) with 2.5 teaspoons of white sugar to my 56g tank, and nitrates decreased from 25 - 5 ppm (Salifert).

I got a bloom that lasted for 24 hours. I have tried the same dosage again, and will see how much it comes down.

Does anyone know if the corals whether softies, lps or sps eat the bacteria produced?

Is it also safe to assume that clams and feather dusters will eat some of the bacteria produced?

[SDguy]

Originally posted by melev
And I thought I would have to drink the vodka to see those colors!

That only makes them do a kaleidoscope effect


A couple more:
My Nathan's mille is getting back it's peach colored colarites, which it lost during the "brownout" and even my super temperamental tricolor (bottom right) is getting some purple to sart showing through the brown. That thing looked like a pile of dog poo, literally.

[acrylic_300]

Does anyone know if the corals whether softies, lps or sps eat the bacteria produced?

Most definitely:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-01/eb/index.php
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-03/eb/index.php

[Leopard Man]

Originally posted by acrylic_300
Most definitely:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-01/eb/index.php
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-03/eb/index.php

Thank you! Very helpful and informative.

[Leopard Man]

I repeated my dosage of 2.5 teaspoons of sugar with 4.5mls of 90 proof vodka on my 56g tank and my nitrates are now 1 (it went from 25 to 5, then now 1). I have dosed the same again to try and get it to 0.

My fish are definitely hungrier and no sign of scratching from them. I read that dosing too much can cause ich and popeye to fish.

[kirstenk]

I read that dosing too much can cause ich and popeye to fish.


Interesting. Can you supply any links?

[Leopard Man]

I just read that people get ich and popeye when they use too much vodka and sugar.

Here are some links:

http://home2.pacific.net.ph/~sweetyu...singsugar.html

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...readid=1260492

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=898931

[Jorgens]

Well I did not read the entire thread yet. That will be my reading this evening. I will share my observations with sugar dosing.

200ga system volume. DSB/ASM G-3/20x tank turn over/3x 250w mh/2x 96w actinics PC
Alk 8
Cal 440
TrAtes 3ppm
PO4 0

My system seem to be able to hold trAtes to about 10ppm naturally without sugar. As I was getting a cyano bloom 6 months ago I thought I'd try it. I started with 1/2 tsp a week. Never got the bacterial bloom but trAtes went to 0 after 2 weeks. I now add 1 tsp every month and trAtes never exced 5ppm. normally at 0-1ppm.

I just added a phos ban reactor and am wonderig if this will increase trAte production so I will be on top of that a bit. I also just changed my bulbs to reeflux 12k. I had been using or I should say "tried" the cheap E-bay jobs. My corals we're turning brown after 4 months, growth slowed, and I've slowly lost a few. They seems to start turning white at the bse and go slowly over a 2 week period. This prompted the change in bulbs.

Anyway, I poseted on loosing them and someone made a comment on possible sugar dosing. I have since increased flow and now changed bulbs and willhave to see what happens. But my exp with the Sugar is nothing but good. I didn't notice any color changes. And 1 tsp a month seems to keep things in check. No alge problems, or the like. I beliee my issues are light/flow related.

I have to give a thumbs up for sugar.