zoo eating nudibranch.

[reefkeeper59]

Here's something any zoo keeper should fear.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showp...t=1&thecat=500
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showp...t=1&thecat=500

When I found out what this was I was very unhappy. Zoo eating nudibranch. They are 1/16 to 1/4 inch in length (small).

It was on a Saterday night when I figured it out. No store's open. Sunday I tried researching to find how to get rid of them. No one seem to be able to tell me what to do. All anybody said was "those are nasty". It was now 10pm Sunday night.

Out of anger watching my zoo's dieing of a slow death, I thought "there has to be something I can do". I thought very hard and said, if the zoo's close themselfs up to protect themselfs, I can use that to my advantage. The nudibranchs are on the outside of the zoo's, not on the closed in portion. I took 4 large zoo colonies out of the tank that are closed up protecting themselfs from the burning/stinging of the nudi's. I could see the nudibranch's hanging on the sides of them eating there tissue. Knowing that zoo are great begginer/ starter corals, I thought they are very hardy. They can take a beating. If I can sacrifice a little damage to them on the outside to kill the nudi's but the inside is protected, they may servive. So I took a 5 gall bucket to the faucet and filled it half way with hot water (hot bath water). Not steaming. I'd quess 125-150 degree's. I put the four corals in the hot water and watched the nudi'd fall off (dead) after 15 to 20 seconds. I left them in there for about 30-40 second's total. I put them back in the tank and noticed one opening up about two hours later. This was the first time it was open in a week. I have about 150 zoo colonies and frag's. I dipped them all. I noticed that as the water got cooler (90-100), it didn't kill them as well. So I kept re-heating the water with a few cups very hot water every now and then. By the time I got done (2hours later) I noticed a couple others looked like they opened as well. The bottom of the bucket must have had 1000 dead nudi's in it. Next day all zoo's are open fully and thriving for first time in a couple weeks.

Since, I have found that you can use lugol's dip. It said to put 40 drops in a gallon of water (for dip). I tried 4 drops in a glass with 8-10 ounce's water. It didn't phase them. Watched them crawl on the inside of the glass for an hour or so. I put 10 more drop's in, nothing. So I put 20 more drop's in. That killed them. Forty drops in 10 ounce's. I dipped a couple zoo's that had missed with the hot dip. I left those in there about 30 minutes (tank temp). I put those in the tank and noticed they opened but very slowly.

Interesting how fast the heat killed the nudi'd but didn't hurt the zoo's.

It was risky but it worked.

Check your zoo's and leather corals once a month for these guys. Take a glass of warm water, shake a zoo in it and see if they fall off. You could have these for month's and not know it untill it's a population boom. I noticed that my zoo's didn't open much, but the water quality was perfect and 90 sps and 150 ricordea are doing great. I noticed something on the glass one day. Within a week, I had 50 of them on the glass when lights out.

There are still a few on the glass. I bought three differnet types of wrasses and they won't eat them. I'll keep them in there and some scooter blenny's, maybe some other copod eaters for other bugs.

I'm going to do the logul's dip in the entire tank. That way it get's any that are in the overflows and wet/dry etc.. I took the sand out and pitched it. There was no live rock in the tank or it would have to be pitched, dipped or scortched as well. It is a farm/propogation tank. Fortunatly the tank (120) is plumbed with a larger tank (240) that has giant skimmer, chiller and refugium's and 400+ lbs LR. When I plumbed them I made them with inline valves that allow me to cycle them seperatly. Also put uv between tanks to minimize disease spread from one to other. So I'll seperate, treat, change 100% water (120), then open valves and cycle together for the filtration needs.

Prey you don't get these scum bags. I'll dip everything I buy from now on in water or dip before going in tank.

[acropora1981]

the first coral I ever bought, back in 1996 was a head of zoo's infested with those little buggers. I finally killed them all off, 3 years later, after a series of daily 5 minute FW dips.

[mfinn]

Somehow, I don't see how any coral is going to survive in 150 degree water, even for 40 seconds.
Anybody else doing this?
Is this the new zoo dip?

[mummra100769]

it does not seem safe to me (for the coral). i would think that there are so many other ways to kill these buggers that to go to such an extreme in not needed.

[reefkeeper59]

I did it. It worked. Some (5 out of 30 colonies)look like there stressing a little but are open. Should be in good shape soon. As you can see how hard these are to get rid of as mentioned above, I'll opp for pitching them in garbage and starting over before dipping for three years.

ACROPORA1981 "I finally killed them all off, 3 years later, after a series of daily 5 minute FW dips".

Pics of them after hot dip.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showp...t=1&thecat=997
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showp...ium&thecat=997

I may have the buggers even after hot dips and lugol's. If so they are gone.

[reefkeeper59]

mummra100769.

there aren't "so many ways' to kill these. They can grow by the thousands and it only take's one egg to start them over again. Do some searching on this site and see the comments about them. Ask the pro's and see what you come up with and put all those (many) ways to kill them on here for us all to see. Better yet, I'll be glad to send you one, and see how savvy you are. They get in the filters, plumbing, overflows, EVERYWHERE. I dosed them with what may be the only cure and had to 10X the dose to kill them. $14.00 per ounce. $1792.00 gallon. I've been on line with the chemical companies and they aren't much help.

[acropora1981]

hmm i never did hot dips, I dipped them at about 75-80F. The adults arent hard to kill, its the damned eggs, they're tough, but freshwater kills a 1mm egg faster than a 10mm polyp.

[crpeck]

Reefkeeper59,

What chemical cure do you mean? Does one exist? I have a miserable infestation ... everywhere.

I've dipped all of the colonies I can pull out. One large colony is all over a large piece of liverock that has been in there since the beginning of my tank. It is full of all kinds of life ... feather dusters, a coco worm, pods, sponges, cup corals, you name it. The zo's on that rock look pretty good, but I found a ring of nudibranch eggs around the base of a zoanthid, so I know they must be on that rock, too.

It's going to break my heart to dip that rock and kill everything else on it, too.

Does anyone know any other way?

Cathy

[reefkeeper59]

lugol's, fourth item down. This is a RC preferred site (sponsor).

http://www.customaquatic.com/customa...2Dsr&offset=30

Kent Marine (maker of lugol's) doesn't seem to have many suggestions regarding other corals being dipped in this solution. You may want to consider removing the items and gluing to another rock first. Or removing the zoo's. I frag them by the hundreds.

Good luck.

[crpeck]

Thanks,

It is a REALLY big rock and completely covered in zoanthids .. I have no idea how many but it would have to be hundreds.

I went ahead and bit the bullet and dipped it. I already had the fresh water ready with Lugols and matched to pH and temp. Fortunately, it was in the front and only supporting one other rock, also covered with zoanthids that needed to come out and be dipped anyway. Really made a mess pulling it out of the sand.

The only rock left with zoanthids cannot reasonably come out. It only has 12 - 15 really common green zo's on it. They have been closed for several days. I guess I need to just tweeze them out? How sad.

This has been really depressing. My tank looks like a war zone. From what I read, I have to do this all again every 3 days to catch hatching eggs? For how long? Maybe I can try the Lugols as follow up since hopefully the newly hatched Nudibranches might be weaker?

Is it reasonable to assume that the first colony that closed and showed the infestation is probably the colony that brought in the nudibranches? Actually, the first two colonies that shut down first both came from the same place at the same time. Both had the most nudis shake off in the dip and clearly had the heaviest infestation. I'm wondering at what point, I should contact where I got them from let them know what is happening. I got the zo's the end of November and started seeing problems around the end of December. They may have come with just eggs.

I've been too trusting ... assuming that if you just buy from reputable places you shouldn't have to quarantine. What an idiot ... never again will I add anything without quarantine and never again without a dip if it is a coral that can stand it.

[reefkeeper59]

Take a carpet knife or chisel and scrape under them as low as possible. Picture them not being there and your trying to scrape off some rock. You'll prob save 50% or higher. depends on the family. Other option would be to get hot water and inject onto the zoo with a baister, while syphoning on the down side of the hot water flow. May take two people. The hotter water will cause the nudi to jump off.

Not sure what good it would do to notify a retailer about the issue, unless they still have a consistent supply of zoo's. If the zoo's wher stocked in a tank that went void of zoo's for a week or more, they probably died out. You can look in the tanks they came from for closed zoo's.

A nudibranch is essentially a snail without a shell. Over generations they have devised a form of survival (shield,defense), this being the natural poison from the zooanthus. They consume the poison from the zoo and store it on there upper body. When a preditor strike's, they get a very bitter taste and reaction to the poison. This makes them undesirable to fish and invertabrates.

There is a lot of speculation as to some parasitic eating wrasses that may cure the problem by consuming them. I had a large population of nudi's and dipped the invested colonies in very warm if not hot water (150 Degrees) that killed many of the adult nudibranch. I then purchased a 6 line wrasse and a manderin, thinking the wrasse was going to eat the remaining nudibranch. I took a fiberglass rod (3/8 diamter) and put the tip on a few nudibranch that survived the dipping. The nudibranch would stick to the rod. I then raised the tip into the water column and shook it loose, hoping the wrasse would eat it up. It would grab it, spit it, grab it, spit it and swim away. Obvious that it wasn't going to eat it. However, With just a few nudibranch left in the tank, I watched them (zoo's) very closely and removed any remaining (visible) nudibranch. I noticed that when I touched the zoo's and they closed, the wrasse would come behind me, inspect the area and nibble. I continued manual extraction of the adult nudibranch (half dozen or so). It's been three weeks and I haven't see a nudi yet. I didn't even get a chance to use the lugol's. All my zoo's are open and thriving.

Preditors won't eat the adult nudibranch because of the poison (bitterness), yet will consume the egg's. Egg's can't consume poison until they hatch and are larva stage. End result, once the adult nudibranch are removed, the wrasse get's the egg's and problem solved. Hopefully.

I have 11 large zoo colonies and 12 acropora frags coming in tomarrow. They will be dipped before tank entry.

Good luck!

[crpeck]

Thanks for the help.

It is interesting what you say about the wrasse eating the eggs but not the nudibranches. I have a Mandarin who has been pretty interested in those zo's, even after I dipped the rocks in freshwater and I'm sure killed all his copepods. I didn't find many eggs when cleaning off the zoanthids. Maybe if I'm lucky, my Mandarin is taking care of the eggs, I've gotten all the nudis, and this may not be so bad after all.

Here is hoping anyway.

I know I need to go scrape those zo's left before they infect the ones I just dipped, but right now I'm kind of ODed on this whole experience.

Thanks for sharing your happy ending anyway. I needed some encouragement. Hope mine works out as well. How do you spot the adults to pull them off, though? I can barely see them unless I move the colony where I can use a magnifying glass. Maybe it's my over 40 eyes. :-)

Thanks again!
Cathy

[reefkeeper59]

I just look for closed zoo's.

Also keep an eye out for snails with a black and white striped pattern. Disc shaped. They are zoo eaters also. They are easy to see (1/2 inch diameter).

[Drewcipher]

I have 2 questions for anyone that might have an opinion. First, I asked the owner of my LFS and he said he had heard of some people that had used flatworm exit successfully. He knows they aren't flatworms, but this is what he heard. Anyone tried this? Second, what happens when they have multiplied out of control and eaten all the zoos. Do they adapt and eat something else? or die off like ick without fish in the tank?

[mfinn]

I don't believe that Flatworm Exit made by Salifert will kill the zoanthid eating nudibrachs, but I do use it in the zoanthid dip when I get new colonies in. I use it mostly for any flat worms that might be on the piece.
I'm hoping that the do die for lack of food. I don't think they will eat anything else.

[crpeck]

I have heard of the flatworm exit solution, but I have not heard of anyone who has actually used it successfully.

According to Dr. Ron, their diet is very specialized and without zoanthids they will die off. Actually, the only sure way to get rid of them is to dip and quarantine the zo's and keep them out of the tank about 6 weeks. Meanwhile, the zo's need to be dipped every 3 days ... I don't know how long ... to eliminate any eggs.

I'm hoping it's not going to be that extreme, but today ... saw one crawling across the front of my glass and zeroing in on one of my favorite colonies and ... of course ... the most difficult rock to pull out and dip.

Thanks for asking the question. I would love to hear if anyone has first hand success with using the flat worm exit.

Cathy

[reefkeeper59]

Another favorite food of nudibranch is spounge's. If they have nothing else to eat they may eat those. They like yellow spounges (a common florida type spounge, atlantic). They also eat poisnous spounge's, as they use the poison for there defense. Simular to the poison from zoo's. You may not think you have spounge's, but if you have alot of rock that's been in your tank for some time, there are small spounge's on the underside.

[reefkeeper59]

I had flat worms (only a few here and there) and used the flat worm extract. Didn't faze the nudi's.

[lunarlanderboy]

So after 10 years of dreaming and 3 months of cycling my tank I buy my first coral colony- (some zoos) and after about two weeks one night I notice these things are all over it!! At first I was excited and now I am terrified after looking for info and reading all this. Thanks for the info though. Luckily I only have one colony and no other corals yet. There are probably about 7-8 visible adults. I guess I might try the hot water trick.

[lunarlanderboy]

Does anybody have any updated information or experience on these little devils before I undertake the attempted irradication?

[crpeck]

With only one colony in a new tank, you should be able to take care of this without too much trouble.

I didn't do hot water. I just brought RO water in line with my tank for temp and pH. I let the zo's sit in it for 5 minutes, then turned them upside down and really whooshed them around in the water. Nudibranchs fell out like crazy. I pulled them out and looked over them carefully with a magnifying glass for eggs and pulled those off with tweezers. Then I swooshed them again to make sure I rinsed everything off.

I did this to 7 colonies Monday and by the next day, all of them were opening and looking much happier to be free of the critters. Well, the only colony that took a couple days to open was the one that had been closed down for almost a week before by the nudibranchs.

To do it right, they ought to be dipped again every 3 days. I'm not sure how long it takes. If you can keep your one colony clean, they should die out in your tank.

Good Luck
Cathy

[crpeck]

p.s. Thanks for posting the awesome picture. It will really help others trying to identify these.

[Drewcipher]

Originally posted by lunarlanderboy
Does anybody have any updated information or experience on these little devils before I undertake the attempted irradication?

Not updated, but old. We tried this and it seems to be working well, and also doesn't scare me like super hot water.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=451720&highlight=mucho+dip

[crpeck]

Thanks for that link. That's where I got the instructions I followed and then I couldn't find the thread again to post the link.

[jcigars]

Try this link Pests I hope it helps someone If you see nudis on any colony remove it from your system asap. Setup a QT tank and treat the pieces when necessary. If you dont find the eggs it will never end.

Jimmy