Possible Pathogen Based Acro Necrosis

Kip · #1 05/21/2007, 05:35 PM

Anybody ever faught a pathogen of sorts that only affects acropora and won?

I've been battling this for a few months now. It started in my frag tank (which was isolated when i found out about the problem) and now i am started to lose colonies in the display.

I have exhausted every possible physical and chemical parameter I can think of and cant find the source of the problem. Being that it only affects acropora and not montis, pocci, seria, or any LPS in the system...i am led to believe it is an acro specific pathogen. All fish, snails, crabs, urchins, stars, etc are doing just fine.

I have tested dkh time after time even after ordering a new kit and it is always within range (9-10)

Ca is always around 400-420... mag at 1200-1300

pH ranges 8.0-8.1... temp ranges 79-81.. salinity is dead on at 35ppt/53mS

i do not dose anything else... just k and c-reactors

i started running o3 at low dose (20mv) and have started UV for anything in the water column

i've ran carbon, chemi-pure, poly-floss... all with no change.

free po4 levels are 0 per hanna photometer

the necrosis starts from the bottom up but doesnt follow a recession line... in other words whole patches fade then necrose

no problems at the tip, which by "rule" excludes bulb burn or foreign toxin/chemical burn

i've done water changes at 25% biweekly and now weekly
i've used different batches of salt, changed out all RO/DI filters

i've inspected all pumps inside and out for rust, voltage, and "material" leaks

flow in the tank is high, but not blasting off the tissue.... i run a sequence 5800 loop on a OM-4way which shoots about 4500gph from left to right, mix, and reverse then repeat... this is supplemented by two vortechs

I am really getting frustrated because absolutely nothing seems to stop it.

I am watching corals die one by one... and slowly... painfully... after watching the all grow from frags to colonies over the last coupla years.

Any suggestions? Anybody been thru this with a happy ending?

Thanks for taking the time to look at this thread.

-disheartened reefer

Kip · #2 05/21/2007, 05:36 PM

oh... few more things to add

lugols nor TMProCC baths dont stop the problem

i've not had any RBs in years (screen/treat all new arrivals)

no AEFWs or their eggs anywhere

no fish nipping

i think i've covered everything i can think of at this point

DarkXerox · #3 05/21/2007, 06:12 PM

Jeez Kip, you have a killer tank too, so it is highly unlikely that it is your husbandry.

Any photos of the affected pieces? Also did your frag tank share water with your display?

Kip · #4 05/21/2007, 06:21 PM

yes... shared water... then i isolated the frag tank since the problem started there

pictures... none yet... but there seems to be plenty of opportunity coming

speedstar · #5 05/21/2007, 06:25 PM

Do some re-search on it, but if it were mine I'd use a erythromycin dip on it similar to what is used on brown jelly infrections on hammers / frogspawns.

I've used it in the past with good results for the unexplainable that TMPCC wouldn't do anything for.

speedstar · #6 05/21/2007, 06:28 PM

This maybe the same ingredient in red slime remover, but I have always used pharmacutical grade.

Read you thread on your forum, just curious if your ro/di is at a zero. Mine at one point was at 2 unexplainable it turned out the local water plant added a new type of chlorine that my standard RO unit couldn;t remove.

Kip · #7 05/21/2007, 07:21 PM

i used boyd's slime remover in hopes that whatever antibiotic in it would help (if in fact there is an antibiotic in it).... no dice

... thought about trying an ery-tab but have been a little shy

TDS of RO/DI... i have a coupla testers and they all read 0... there is a dual carbon in the array for chlorine/chloramine removal

i appreciate all of the suggestions... keep em coming

otherwise... i will become a newbie at a stamp collection forum

the_anti_honda · #8 05/21/2007, 07:27 PM

I was trying to go through and rule out all possible pathogen related issues you might be having with your corals. You said it does not follow a recession line so we can assume its not something like white band diseases or a cyano bacteria infection.

Are there any possible stresses (unusually turbidity, irritants, stagnation) to the affected corals?
If this ONLY affecting Acropora species?
Have you looked at something like white pox?

I would try a series of dip using erythromycin as mentioned above and if that dose not work maybe a long term bath with a mild amount of erythromycin in your frag tank as a QT.

I also assume that we ruled out it is nothing cellular as its affecting multiple different species correct?

I hope that some of this may help if not I hope we find something soon. I have told you before your aquarium is hands down my favorite so if there is anything I can do I will.

Oh and if you have a chiller on right now is it a drop in or flow through and have you inspected it?

tfp · #9 05/21/2007, 07:35 PM

kip, any strange algae appearing? also, check copper or amonia? pesticides or paint fume exposure? just throwing some ideas out there...

Kip · #10 05/21/2007, 07:36 PM

chiller... flow thru... seems to be performing as usual... no leaks, creep, etc

acros only but yeah... all species of acro

possible stresses... i have seen the super tiny clear aiptasia-like hyroids colonize at receded areas... but i dont know which is the chicken or the egg.... also.. i have had affected corals with no signs of those tiny hydroids.... and some corals with the little hydroids on the rock near them and the acro unaffected

there were recession lines on some acros... others (like the cali tort that just started) is patchy

you may have read in the thread on my forum that i have fragged "healthy" areas and put them in an acro rescue tank... so far, no problems in the rescue tank except for a frag that was really tiny due to the lack of "healthy" areas to choose from

i am thinking the healthy areas of the coral arent affected.... i gave a guy some frags before i really knew of this problem and he has had absolutely no issues. So... if the base of the coral is receding with this "disease" ... frags are taken from the top and stay healthy... does that mean the "disease" doesnt take over all of the tissue of the acro at once?

questions, questions

Kip · #11 05/21/2007, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tfp
kip, any strange algae appearing? also, check copper or amonia? pesticides or paint fume exposure? just throwing some ideas out there...

no strange algae... i did have some patches of grn slime that went away with the boyds treatment. there is some red turf algae here and there, but nothing that i havent seen before

copper... i dont have a test for that... i will add that to the purchase list.... ammonia... none detectable

no painting... no pesticides (if there were... i've been thru enough carbon, polyfloss, and chemi-pure to have sequestered that

another odd part of this is that it isnt affecting everything at once... in the frag tank.. would take out 3-4 frags all at once over 2-3wks.... in the display.. .seems to move from acro to acro, one by one.... and they arent close to each other

thanks again for the suggestions... as i said, keep em rolling... maybe you guys will think of something i havent... or maybe someone reading through all of this can put 2 and 2 together from the questions i answer

the_anti_honda · #12 05/21/2007, 07:43 PM

What I'm thinking is if in fact it is a bacterial infection you would need to treat all affected corals in a separate holding tank much like your frag system with an antibiotic to get the multiple generations of bacteria that might be in the water as well.

Reason I'm thinking this is if you only treat the individual coral you are just returning it to affected or infected water.

tfp · #13 05/21/2007, 07:45 PM

kip, post a picture of that red turf algae when you get a chance...

the_anti_honda · #14 05/21/2007, 07:50 PM

I will keep following this and check back up on it when I'm home from work.

Best of luck.

sugartooth · #15 05/21/2007, 08:22 PM

Would a worm do something like this?

Kip · #16 05/21/2007, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by the_anti_honda
What I'm thinking is if in fact it is a bacterial infection you would need to treat all affected corals in a separate holding tank much like your frag system with an antibiotic to get the multiple generations of bacteria that might be in the water as well.

Reason I'm thinking this is if you only treat the individual coral you are just returning it to affected or infected water.

i am gonna need a huge holding tank to get these colonies into

water borne pathogen... o3 and uv wouldnt take care of that?

Kip · #17 05/21/2007, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tfp
kip, post a picture of that red turf algae when you get a chance...

i will work on that... and some pics of the recession

i have a stag that was recently sun dried with the affliction... this is usually the easiest way to see adult aefw's because they stain the dead acro branches for a little while.... not a trace of 'em

Kip · #18 05/21/2007, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sugartooth
Would a worm do something like this?

i think i'd see a pattern of "feeding"... bite marks, etc... this is just random disintegration of tissue for the most part with a little normal "linear" recession from the base here and there

speedstar · #19 05/21/2007, 10:02 PM

perhaps to buy more time you should lower the water temp to 77 degrees and see if it slows.

Have you considered though i have no idea if it could help at all (most likely not) but doseing vodka or sugar to the point of the big bloom then have skimmer pull all the crap out and hopefully some of the problem. I realize it could cause alot more stress swing the CNP factor, but as a last ditch effort if everything else fails.

I'd still try a erythromycin dip or bath in QT see it it stops the problem. The acne topical is what i used in the past.

speedstar · #20 05/21/2007, 10:04 PM

Also was flow ever stopped to your CA RX long enough that a bad or ugly bacteria could be in it, or could the media have something bad in it. throwing out ideas sorry if there wack

Kip · #21 05/21/2007, 10:06 PM

i've dosed vodka intermittently

been a long time ago, but i had a kalk overdosed that i countered with vinegar... had a heckuva bloom.... so i know exactly what you are talking about.

i am gonna look into the antiobiotic thing and go from there

to get my tank at 77*F max is gonna be tough.... my chiller will have to run 24/7 or we will have to skip thru summer/fall and go straight into winter

Kip · #22 05/21/2007, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by speedstar
Also was flow ever stopped to your CA RX long enough that a bad or ugly bacteria could be in it, or could the media have something bad in it. throwing out ideas sorry if there wack

nope... no stoppage of flow in c-reactor except for maybe 30 mins here and there

media... has the same media in it that i put in when i set it up last august

this problem has been happening since feb/mar... but really progressing lately. my first memory of necrosis that coulda begun this stretch of malady was an acro frag that came in Jan this year. It started receding... i kept fragging and remounting and it kept receding... i couldnt get any of it to survive.

Could very well be that the acro mentioned brought in some crazy disease that is causing all of this.

the_anti_honda · #23 05/21/2007, 10:40 PM

I really think it sounds like whats affecting a ton of corals in the Caribbean right now. White line, its a type of bacterial infection thats starts at the base then works its way up, then start blotching. It is said to have been caused by stress or sometimes even called (SRN) stress related necrosis.

I would steer clear of trying to add any vodka/sugar/ethanol related things. This is only going to cause bacteria to have something to feed on. If this is a bacteria that is eating at his coral thats going to be very counterproductive.

foshizzle · #24 05/21/2007, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kip
i've dosed vodka intermittently

been a long time ago, but i had a kalk overdosed that i countered with vinegar... had a heckuva bloom.... so i know exactly what you are talking about.

i am gonna look into the antiobiotic thing and go from there

The only acro colony I have ever had die in a tank full of SPS was a misc. pink that bit it recently. I think it had something to do with O/bacterial levels. When I first started dosing vinegar in kalkwasser the main colony started to recede at the base and even "healthy" frags taken from the mother all RTNd over a few days. Months later, I started dosing the bacteria solution of Prodibio and a 2" frag of the same colony on the other side of the tank RTNd. 30 or so other acros remained unfazed through both episodes?

revclyburn · #25 05/21/2007, 11:21 PM

KiP

Can you please post some pics. Perhaps you could forward them to a marine biologist as see what they say.

Edwin