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#51
12/26/2006, 12:19 PM
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I for one, am growing tired of the unprovoked personal attacks by people who feel justified in entering a thread just for that purpose.
staticx, if you feel that this is a subject that you can contribute to, then your comments ON THE SUBJECT are welcome. On the other hand, if your only intention is to cause trouble and make personal attacks... then I think most of could do without your presence here. Please stop stalking me from thread to thread for no other reason than to insult me. |
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#52
12/26/2006, 12:36 PM
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yes you can make a good om yourself.problem is you need a mill and lathe.i made one and am gonna use it on my 75g.it is a 6 way mag drive setup.1" inlet and 6/1" outlets.i got my magnets from http://www.unitednuclear.com/magnets.htm (i got .250 diameter x .100 thick,2lbs pull).the motor is 1 rpm(havent bought it yet but found it at grainger for $80).here are some pics and a video.
     this video im turning it by hand and shows it is a mag drive(you can see slipping but it doesnt slip when all together) 
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#53
12/26/2006, 12:43 PM
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You can also make your own 1000 c.i. cylinder block, crank, pistons, and camshaft... but you need a good set of machine tools and the understanding that goes with them
 It is still DIY, but not the average guys DIY! Nice work BTW |
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#54
12/26/2006, 02:20 PM
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the biggest factor that could be avoided by doing a diy project. would be to design flow so as the water flowing through the valve system does not make a 90 degree turn. such as the link hahnsmeister provided http://www.weatherson.com/sinusoidal_valve.htm
by removing that 90 you can increase the output by a 17% margin. |
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#55
12/26/2006, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
 
__________________
Lee |
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#56
12/26/2006, 04:13 PM
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Well said, lvpd186 and Bergovoy
Checkinhawk, Looks nice, and like Bean said, not the average DIY! I am wondering how much larger your drum is than the OM. The larger surface area of the drum will create more hydraulic force on the drum against the lid and could cause binding if the pressure is run too high. Just a thought. If you hear the magnets clicking then you know the drum has jammed. Thats gonna be fun to plumb
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"Not cheap, but silent and absofrickenlutely no bubbles" "Be sure and wear a speedo lest tangs nest in your britches" |
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#57
12/26/2006, 05:20 PM
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Doug... with a large diameter drum, you could get away with a 45 degree port instead of a 90. The outlets would be on the top of the unit instead of the sides. The diameter would either have to be large enough to fit the motor in betwee the ports, or use a shaft coupled motor and drive plate (mag nor not).
Other improvements would include a taller drum with internally shaped section instead of the "hole in a pipe" shape. Then again... with all the trouble I would still likely just buy the OM and be done with it. Last edited by BeanAnimal; 12/26/2006 at 06:18 PM. |
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#58
12/26/2006, 05:54 PM
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checkinhawk - awesome work with the DIY OM (I say DIY lightly because it looks like a professionally made unit, definitely not the typical DIY). Out of curiosity, and maybe to prove a point, how much would that have cost if you added in shop hours, machine hours, programming time, material and labor (and the motor that your going to buy to run it)?
__________________
Vice President Omaha Marine Society Coral Tees Frag Plug Designer (Click my Red House) |
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#59
12/26/2006, 09:27 PM
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Very nice Checkinhawk, I saw your occupation was custom plastics fabricator, I wish i had access to all those machines!!! Boy would I be set. I have to do alot of fabrication myself with our work, but it is mostly steel and wood. It is the people like us who take this hobby to the limits we see. Pride goes along with good work, so everybody be careful with comments that PERSONALLY NEGATIVE!!!!
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#60
12/27/2006, 08:57 PM
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thanks for all the compliments guys and you are right it isnt the average DIY.i am very lucky to have access to all the tools and materials.ok im gonna tell you what i got invested in this(dont cry i know its cheap)to date ive spent $15.yes thats right $15.only thing i had to buy were the magnets,i still havent got the motor but grainger has it for $80(exact same motor OM uses 1 rpm).the machining time wasnt too bad,id say i have about 8 hours in it(but that was on a manual mill and lathe ,no cnc).i had to make it while on breaks and lunch.all the pvc i used was just scrap pieces laying around
and i think i get your point lvpd186 THERE ISNT $400 WORTH IN IT FROM OM.id say it costs OM about $150 to make the 4 way.btw i still havent got the motor,i just bought my 75 and will be drilling it this weekend for the loop that this valve will be used on.once i get the motor i will post some pics and videos of it running.
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#61
12/27/2006, 09:10 PM
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Keep inmind that tehre are other costs associated with marketing products for consumer use, (commercial use as well), i.e. product liability to name one big one...
Again like many things, volume of sales distriubtes that costs an dother costs out over the entire production line, and that is why prices come down after a period. And also, the opther most important bottom line on determining the value of a product is simple econoomics... Whatever the market will bare. ie it is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Not one cent more... No matter what it costs to produce. t then becomes a business decision as to whether a manufacturere wants to produce something if he knows he can not recuperate his cost or not... Typically the answer is NO he will not spend money to lose money in the end. I think when Paul saw that he can charge as much as he is charging ont he product line, he was able to incorporate changes and imporvements tothe product without increasing the cost, (at least I dont think he raised the price did he??) Anyway, I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong. Bill |
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#62
12/28/2006, 10:25 AM
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I dunno what you guys charge for machine time... but 8 hours @ $50.00 an hour is $400 bucks. Setup and tooling.... etc.
As mentioned marketing, customer service, and the overhead of running a business all add in. The OM devices simply are not overpriced. I kinda of get a chuckle everytime I hear somebody say they are. |
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#63
12/28/2006, 10:28 AM
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"it costs OM about $150 to make the 4 way"
Yeah after buying the $1M in equipment, lol. I can see where people think this is all profit, but hes got a huge investment in machinery up there. This is just a fun thing for him to do, as his bread and butter is building far more complex devices for all types of industry. Hes got great product, treats people well, and really bends over backwards to help people. Besides, to MOST people, the 4way is an untouchable DIY, and costs are not nearly as inflated as other reef equipment, and is a tougher product to boot. A few talented guys out there like checkin, weatherson, etc have the right tools to play with DIYingthis kind of stuff, but for the average reefer, in the grand scheme, this thing is totally worth it.
__________________
"Not cheap, but silent and absofrickenlutely no bubbles" "Be sure and wear a speedo lest tangs nest in your britches" |
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#65
12/28/2006, 02:56 PM
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This DIY is somewhat similar to trying to build a 'Tunze Wave Box', only it would be extremely difficult if not impossible to DIY a Tunze pump if you know what I mean.
checkinhawk ... I have to hand it to you, that is excellent work! I'm sure it will be a success. There is a guy on a different thread who is using 'machinable wax' to form a cylinder inside of a PVC housing. He used readily available tools (hole saws, etc...) to cut the ports in the wax. I don't recall exactly, but I believe he is encapsulating his magnets inside the wax with a second pour (of melted wax). It's not done yet, but it looks promising. I'm curious to see if or how it turns out. I imagine that there could be some flaws with the design with regards to wearing points on the wax, but a cool idea none the less. |
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#66
12/28/2006, 07:47 PM
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yeah i saw the wax one and wondered about wearing.you guys are right they do have alot of money in the machines to make the oms.also the 8 hours it took me is more like 2 hours on a setup cnc machine(maybe less).once the machine is programmed it can punch them out way faster than any human could ever do.the actual cost to make the om is probably low(as far as materials),the initial investment for the machines to make it is high.h2o you are very correct in that the product is great and the service,im just cheap and cant see spending that knowing i can make it for a fraction(as far as material cost).and once again thanks for the comps.it shouldnt be too long before i get to use my 6 way,i just picked up my new 90g and plan on drilling it this weekend
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#67
12/29/2006, 12:22 AM
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8',
You should sell those! You could make money and we could get a cheap product. You make it for $15 and sell it for 50-100. Crazy profit. that plus $80 for the motor would put money in everyones pocket. How fast could you knock one of these out now?
__________________
65 gallon 36x18x24tall-20 long Refugium, Octopus NW-150 (modified to recirc.) 2x250 Aqua Medic Phoenix 14k bulbs !!!!!!!!!!!!!FOR SALE!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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#68
12/29/2006, 12:40 AM
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Well first of all, this is not the place to develop and sell a product.
Secondly, there may be some patent issues (not sure of Paul patented anything or not). Thirdly, unless he is using HIS equipment, I suspect that the OWNER of the equipment would consider moonlighting on his [the onwers] equipment dishonest at best, theft at worst. So what if he owns the machine? Machine time is easily $50 an hour, if not 3 times that for some work. If he owns the machine then he has to pay for the maintenance, electricity, etc. When he is in the business of doing contract work how can he justify the machine time to build wave makers? I am not being condescending.. but seeing that your still in "school" you there is a lot to learn about making money full time or as a part time gig... that "crazy profit" will not look so crazy after everything is added up. That was just the labor side of things... but when you start selling stuff for profit you open another whole can of worms: What happens when he sells you one for $200 and something goes wrong who supports it? Support takes TIME and MONEY. What happens when the IRS nails him for tax fraud? You have to pay tax on what you sell, it is a business. What happens when your house burns down because the motor shorted out? He has to have insurance and would be smart to have the item UL listed. What happens when your sister gets electrocuted feeding the fish and your parents sue him for everything he has? Ahh yes the insurance is important! What happens when he gets fired for using his bosses equipment to run a side business? Will $100 bucks profit on the side be enough to pay the bills? How many will he have to sell a week to stay out of hawk? But wait he has no place to build them he got fired! Ohh he owns the equipment? What happens when he falls behind on his regular work and loses clients becuse he is making wavemakers? I think you get the idea. A whole class could be taught on this subject. As others have stated, the prices for the OM stuff are not at all inflated. They are fair prices for very well made products with the support to back them up. Those who keep saying they are a rip off or could be done DIY cheaper, frankly have no idea what they are talking about. If you have the skills, time and tools, then of course you can DIY one cheaper.... but you could also DIY just about anything at that point from cylinder heads to a cookoo clock. Bean |
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#69
12/29/2006, 01:14 AM
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Wow, great job attacking me on that one. He doesn't have to warranty them. The pump could be bought by the consumer as i posted in my last post. I figured maybe he does this stuff as a hobby and might enjoy making stuff like this. About the whole tax thing, I'm pretty sure that the government is not going to be cracking down on some guy on reef central for selling a product to support his hobby (whether it is or not i guess we'll find out.) obviously the guy has a nack for machining and I just thought that it would be cool to spread the good. "I am not being condescending", yeah you are. Just because I'm in school doesn't mean that I'm ignorant of business, taxes, the worlds existance etc, but shouldn't the gov't get that big chunk of change from the used equipment forum? You made it as if I'm asking the guy to start a full fledged business with a license etc to sell these things. I get your idea but all the things you listed are involved in starting a full fledged business. You really blew what i said out of proportion to make me sound bad. I understand you really support OM. I've seen you posting similar arguments before, but when someone copies a deltec skimmer design and sells it, should they be shot down by the IRS and get insurance to support that skimmer etc?? Your like the angry man in a bar to picks fights with the 90 pound crack head playing with sticks in the corner. Get a grip on yourself and stop attacking 18 year old high school kids with your devout knowledge of the business world. while your reading this I'm going to go contemplate your existence and why you sound angry in most of your post that I've read.
__________________
65 gallon 36x18x24tall-20 long Refugium, Octopus NW-150 (modified to recirc.) 2x250 Aqua Medic Phoenix 14k bulbs !!!!!!!!!!!!!FOR SALE!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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#70
12/29/2006, 01:32 AM
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"i just picked up my new 90" congrats on the new tank! I know what you mean about being cheap. I'm a student and an in season wrestler with no time for a job supporting a reef tank!!!
__________________
65 gallon 36x18x24tall-20 long Refugium, Octopus NW-150 (modified to recirc.) 2x250 Aqua Medic Phoenix 14k bulbs !!!!!!!!!!!!!FOR SALE!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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#71
12/29/2006, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
I am tired of people claiming to be attacked when there was no attack. You offered an opinion with what you considered evidence to support it. You better be prepared for people to disagree and state or show why. That is not an attack. Nothing in my response was personal or negative towards you. Quote:
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The point here was very simple. An "Ocean Motions" is priced where it is for a reason. They are not a readily DIYable device and can not be mimicked for cheaper by most people. Thos who can mimic them either have PAID a small fortune for the tools and knowledge to do so, or must borrow the tools to do so. This also means that "selling a few of these for scary profit" is not really a reality.... thats all. Talk to SPAZZ about "DIYing" stuff and then trying to do it for profit. You may learn a LOT about this exact type of side business for "scary profit" and what all is involved. It will be an eye opener I have a feeling. |
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#72
12/29/2006, 11:53 AM
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manufacturing can realize the largest profits compared to any other businesses.
reasons are as follows. most manufacturing is created around a patnted product, or "secret" machinery designed for the building of. ever read or see where a company uses something that they call a trade secret? thats because by patenting it you give a description and plans on how the device works. when the patent runs out everyone can build that device. by keeping it a secret you can be the only owner of that device for eternity (unless someone figuers it out on there own). ok back to the main topic. the problem with manufacturing risks is the large investments that come with start up. machinery is not cheap and if the product fails and the machinery is custom who are you going to sell it to? now once you get everything up and running you need huge margins to pay for the initial investment as well as the normal costs of doing business. now hear is where you can reap the benifits. if you are able to sustain your leadership in that particular business then eventually you will pay off your initial investment. also because of your command of the market you will be able to keep the margins the same and only have normal business costs. now you can retire. unless someone decides they can build a product that can compete with yours. now they will have a hard time because the need to make the same initial investment as the original guy. but now there is competition. so the risks are much higher for the second guy. there must be a very good reason to enter his market ie; better product, less expensive product, etc. retail generaly has the lowest margins because startup costs are low. distributers are generaly next because they are required to have large amounts of stock (start up costs are higher). but thats the goal in business buy or make something for less and sell it for more. so there is no such thing as being overpriced as long as someone is buying it. if you want to really diy this type of wave maker and make it for less. then you need to start doing some research and find off the shelf parts for less, that can be assembled into this type of device. it may be able to be done. but as was pointed out is the cost of the motor. maybe start there by finding a durable motor for less? |
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#73
12/29/2006, 12:09 PM
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Good point Doug, I know when my brother started his shop it was difficult to come up with the business to cover the expense of owning the CNC machine. Those CNC machines are a very, very high cost item (I think I posted before that a mini-mill was listed at $30000 base cost). Now that his shop has progressed he has several CNC machines, but I know there is always that bottom line; ie if you dont cover the costs of the machines, employees, etc you dont make any profit.
checkinhawk - actually my point was going to be the opposite (lol), I truly expected you to say that with the machine time, your time (if you were on the clock at the time, including the planning time) and everything else that your total would have been more then the cost of an OM. I'm glad it worked out that way for you though, you ended up with a sweet looking wave-maker (one that you can proudly show off I might add). I would imagine though if you were going to sell it you wouldn't charge $15 bucks. Now, if I can only find the time to learn how to use those CNC mills at my brother's shop... 
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Vice President Omaha Marine Society Coral Tees Frag Plug Designer (Click my Red House) |
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#74
12/30/2006, 08:10 PM
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"Your like the angry man in a bar to picks fights with the 90 pound crack head playing with sticks in the corner. Get a grip on yourself and stop attacking 18 year old high school kids with your devout knowledge of the business world. while your reading this I'm going to go contemplate your existence and why you sound angry in most of your post that I've read.
And that my friend WAS a personal attack and uncalled for. I am not angry, nor have I attacked you. This was a conversation between many parties, most of which have made good points. You simply can not start name calling when somebody disagrees with you. Your comments were uncalled for and there is certainly no way that you can justify that behavior. The point here was very simple. An "Ocean Motions" is priced where it is for a reason. They are not a readily DIYable device and can not be mimicked for cheaper by most people. Thos who can mimic them either have PAID a small fortune for the tools and knowledge to do so, or must borrow the tools to do so. This also means that "selling a few of these for scary profit" is not really a reality.... thats all. Talk to SPAZZ about "DIYing" stuff and then trying to do it for profit. You may learn a LOT about this exact type of side business for "scary profit" and what all is involved. It will be an eye opener I have a feeling." Your right it was and I apologize. You caught me at a bad moment, i was ticked at something so I guess you could call that indirect anger. A lot of my comments were out of line, not thought out and unnecessary. Getting back from Miami beach from seeing relatives has calmed me down enough to not be ashamed to admit that. "The point was that it would take a full fledged business to make any money doing it. Using your bosses equipment, offering no warranty, having no insurance and the rest of the stuff all come into play. Your point was "easy scary profit" My point is and was, not so easy." But does he really? There are people on Ebay who build skimmers out of their home and sell them of for profit. It is unknown, by us, what kind of relationship he has with his boss, and if he feels confident that his equipment will work them it should be optional whether a guaranty should be provided by him or not. He has the right to sell his equipment "as is" and as long as the consumer is notified of it. " You really blew what i said out of proportion to make me sound bad. MY goal was not to make you sound bad. I am sorry that you see it that way. The point was not to defend OM either." " "I am not being condescending", yeah you are." NO actually I am not. You tried to show that the OMs are overpriced and a guy could whip them out and sell them cheaper AND make more money. I was in no way condescending in showing that this is not the case. " Just because I'm in school doesn't mean that I'm ignorant of business, taxes, the worlds existance etc, but shouldn't the gov't get that big chunk of change from the used equipment forum? Nobody said you were ignorant. But as with everything in life, you learn as you age. Your own comments illustrate that you do not have a firm grasp of what it takes to be in business OR a firm grasp of why a guy can't use his bosses machine to moonlight a DIY business. That is not bad, it just mean you have more to learn (as we all do). As for selling stuff on the selling forum... It is income, but so far removed from this topic that it is useless to discuss." These comments are irrelevant to the base of the discussion and I apologize for bringing that into the conversation but I was curious as to what is your inspiration for posting the lengthy responses? You just seem a little driven to make your points. I'm not trying to impose to prove a point or anything but am just curious. Your right, we all have yet to learn everything, and that is something that is not conceivable by man. obviously the guy has a nack for machining and I just thought that it would be cool to spread the good. NO actually I am not. You tried to show that the OMs are overpriced and a guy could whip them out and sell them cheaper AND make more money. I was in no way condescending in showing that this is not the case. Elaborate on where i tried to prove that OMs are overpriced. I think they are quite reasonable for the situation in which they are sold. There target market is for the average consumer who does not have a CNC machine, who has no connections to a person who has the ability to build these, and has no way of building these themselves. There target market is not the DIY guy on RC who has access to a CNC machine and can build a wavemaker of similar concept, design and funtion. "About the whole tax thing, I'm pretty sure that the government is not going to be cracking down on some guy on reef central for selling a product to support his hobby (whether it is or not i guess we'll find out.) Breaking the law is... well breaking the law. The problem is not getting away with it. The problem is when you get caught and have to pay the fines. That scary profit goes out the window." So then that is the consequence, but the chance of that happening is a million to one. The guy on ebay selling his skimmers does not get sued by the IRS so why should this guy. When you drive do you speed? You can call me guilty but do I have a ticket for it, nope. I guess you could say there is a paper trail when you sell these things but the IRS usually goes after big money not the little guy on RC. " I figured maybe he does this stuff as a hobby and might enjoy making stuff like this And that was the point. Doing a "one off" and trying to make money are two different things. One is a hobby and the other is business." there are people who have hobbies and sell stuff cause of them. It is not a rare thing to encounter. You don't have to start a full fledged business to sell a home made product and there are many examples of that. " He doesn't have to warranty them. Of course he does not have to. But when people spend $100-$200 or so and something goes wrong, they are going to be upset. Bad feedback from customers can put a damper on "scary profit" very quickly. Scary profit becomes scammer profit with no warranty" But if the consumer understood the agreement then it is not a case as to whether or not they like the product. It is what they agreed to buy. " The pump could be bought by the consumer as i posted in my last post. When you say "pump" I assume you mean "motor". You pay $80 or the manufacturer pays $60 and marks it up a few dollars. He is buying in quantity with and at wholesale. You are buying in single piece lots and at retail. No great savings here." Yeah i meant motor, my mistake. I never mentioned But the fact of the matter is, you are still saving ( i mentioned 50-100 not 100-200) more than the extra $20 spent on the pump. "}Wow, great job attacking me on that one. Lets get a few things straight: I am tired of people claiming to be attacked when there was no attack. You offered an opinion with what you considered evidence to support it. You better be prepared for people to disagree and state or show why. That is not an attack. Nothing in my response was personal or negative towards you." Screw it. This is irrelevent to the topic. My statement is to bold and too prejudice. I'm sorry for my somewhat angry response. I had a bad day.
__________________
65 gallon 36x18x24tall-20 long Refugium, Octopus NW-150 (modified to recirc.) 2x250 Aqua Medic Phoenix 14k bulbs !!!!!!!!!!!!!FOR SALE!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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#75
12/30/2006, 08:30 PM
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it may be able to be done. but as was pointed out is the cost of the motor. maybe start there by finding a durable motor for less?
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...5&pagenumber=1 I was thinking a simular design as this could be used but with the differences that checkinhawk had in his design, like the Magnet mechanism implemented into it. It would be cheap and would not have to be CNC made.
__________________
65 gallon 36x18x24tall-20 long Refugium, Octopus NW-150 (modified to recirc.) 2x250 Aqua Medic Phoenix 14k bulbs !!!!!!!!!!!!!FOR SALE!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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