KNO3 dosing Q (primarily)

[graveyardworm]

Awesome, I just started dosing iron myself. Seachem iron test before dosing was zero, I added 8 drops Kents iron and havent tested again yet. Also checked NO3 prior to dosing and Salifert kit indicated 2.5. Very encouraging hopefully bubble algae doesnt like FE as much as macro.

[The_Nexis_One]

OK... is this stuff really KNO3 ? I dosed 2ml of my weak solution (per master Sarah's recipe), waited 1.5 hours and tested my Nitrate - zippo.... I added another 3ml (because .5 tsp as she recommended is 2.5ml and I shorted the first dose), waited 1.5 hours and tested again - Nadda!... no Nitrates detectible...

Does this sound right? I'd really hate to be dosing more and more and more only to find out this is something other than KNO3... LOL!

(I'm 99.9% sure it's KNO3 - but... there's still that 0.1% )

any idea how much I'll need to add to see a detectible amount? Is it something where I need to wait a day to test it = maybe it's the wrong form of nitrate for the test kit or maybe it's not disassociated or something... I dunno.. it's been many years since I played with Chemistry stuff...

Thoughts?

TIA,
John.

[Samala]

In retrospect John, I think my version of a weak solution to try was much much too weak. Sorry about that, I was tossing out ideas, didnt realize you were going to use that recipe precisely.

A tsp of KNO3 is probably about 5-6 grams in weight. Do you have a reliable way to weight out the powder in grams? Maybe a kitchen scale? It might be okay to use an estimate of 5.5g but it may be a bit off. This is where I once again curse the non-metric nature of our weights/measures.

Now.. 5.5g is not much nitrate, I did indeed give you a very very weak solution to work with. KNO3 is about 61% nitrate by weight, so 3.4g of nitrate went into your 2cups/500ml of water. You are dosing 2.5ml of that solution, so effectively giving the tank 0.017g of NO3, or 17 mg.

The effective size of the system (pred fuge + fuge + display) is somewhere around 90gallons, right? Lets conservatively estimate that you lose about 25% of that volume to displacement and say you have, oh, 67gallons to work with. Adding 17mg of nitrate to 67gallons would raise all those gallons by a paltry 0.067 ppm. No wonder you cant see a rise in the levels on the test kit!!

You'll have to add, oh, 37.5 ml (7.5 tsps) to get to 1ppm raise using the original solution recipe I gave.

I was so preoccupied with not suggesting a mix that would poison your system I totally lost sight of how large the overall system really is. Sheesh, dont listen to me anymore, lol.

Instead, here's a new idea: lets try 4.5 tsps of KNO3 powder in 2 cups and dose 5ml (1 tsp) of that solution. I'm hoping that should bring the tank up by 1ppm or so. Feel free to dose again each day until you have something readable on the test kit, but go slowly of course. The idea is still to not have such a concentrated solution that you will OD the tank easily.

Now.. if you think your system holds less water than 67gallons or so, or if you find that a tsp (or your tsps for that matter) weight more than say 5.5g or so on average, please do let me know. Changes to both of these vary the outcome.

As a side note, I was clicking through freshwater planted links I had from the old days and ran across Chuck Gadd's calculator here. Keep in mind that his calculator assumes you will dose just 1ml of the stock solution when it calculates the ppm raise. Still an excellent resource. I was building one and now I dont know if I have too.

Let me know if this makes sense or not!
>Sarah

[The_Nexis_One]

Many thanks Sarah,


No worries on the miscalc before. I was just concerned that something might be wrong on my side.

Ok So.. check my math:

40 Gallon breeder with WAY too much rock = ~30 Gallons

Sump usually runs at about: ~4 gallons

40 Gallon Lagoon tank, sectioned as below:
-Lagoon section: 42x12x12 w/ 4.5" sand and a spattering of LR (lite reef structure). So... I'll guess around 25 gal?
-Refug/overflow: 9"x4.75"x12" w/ large rubble so... I'll guess 2 gal

So, figure another 2 gallons for skimmer and tubes, etc

So... 30gal + 4gal, + 25gal + 2 + 2 = 63 gal actually (...actually guessed that is... )

Instead, here's a new idea: lets try 4.5 tsps of KNO3 powder in 2 cups and dose 5ml (1 tsp) of that solution. I'm hoping that should bring the tank up by 1ppm or so. Feel free to dose again each day until you have something readable on the test kit, but go slowly of course. The idea is still to not have such a concentrated solution that you will OD the tank easily.

Now, what I'm confused about is when I run that calculator I'm not getting matching info:

so I ran it as follows - settings:

10 tsp or 56grams KNO3 solute
500 ml of RO/DI solvent
63 Gal system
yeilds a 1ml dose that alters the system by ~.3ppm

This would mean dosing 3ml a day for 1ppm replacement.

Math isn't one of my strong points so feel free to point and laugh...

Thanks,
John.

[Samala]

No that's totally fine to do it the way you posted, a nice even 10 tsps in 500ml and then dose about 3ml from that solution. Calculators are fun, eh? Its easiest to decide how much you want to dose (I like to do 1ml) and work from there. But 3 or 5 or 10ml, whichever you're comfortable with is ok.

If you were to use the 4.5 tsps KNO3 in 500ml solution I gave earlier you'd need to dose about 7 tsps of the solution, which would be a pain I'd think.

>Sarah

[The_Nexis_One]

Thanks Sarah!

Off to mix up a batch I go

John.

[The_Nexis_One]

OK... I mixed up a batch as described above (10tsp/500ml).

It got crazy cold while mixing it and turned yellow...

My question is: is there 'supposed' to be any precipitate from this solution? In both this batch and the super-weak batch previously, there was a mulm like sediment. I'm not sure if this is impurities in the mix or if it's supposed to do this at 'near saturation' levels (it was hard to disolve the 10tsp all the way - had to shake it vigerously). I did use RO/DI to mix.

Anyone have any experiance with mixing KNO3 or especially Stump remover

John.

[The_Nexis_One]

Well, I had tested for nitrates within 24 hours and had added nothing else, so I skipped the initial Nitrate test. I dosed 3ml of the new solution (10tsp/500ml) and tested... nothing (but that's expected). I dosed another 3ml about 1.5 hours later and waited an hour, tested.. nothing... (still should be around 2ppm and test kit doesn't change color until you hit 5ppm)...

Going to dose again this morning and continue until I hit 5ppm. Hopefully once I get there, I'll be able to maintain 5ppm with just the daily 3ml dose..... after I get it stabilized, I'll start looking at how I can cheaply automate this process.

I know that slow changes to the system are best - but is there any issue with raising the NO3 quickly.... like 5ppm in a day?

Thanks,
John.

[The_Nexis_One]

OK... well - I did it

I got to dosing another 3ml and thought.... "ah screw it, lets just see" ... so I added 9ml of KNO3 solution (which should put me at 5ppm in the system). I watched everything for a reaction and I didn't see anything abnormal... I did however, notice 5 new .5" fronds from my feather caulerpa and a new runner of ~1" since I planted them Thursday of last week (~3.5 days ago) Even the section the Urchin ran off with is sending out new fronds and what might be a runner.

I waited about an hour and tested the system for Nitrates.

The reading shows between 5ppm and 10ppm (hard to tell sometimes with these Aquarium Pharmaceuticals kits). So... all appears well and it seems that the calculator and Sarah were right.

Many thanks,

I'll test each day (if not twice a day) to see how the uptake is...

Thanks again,
John.

[Samala]

Interesting observation of a precipitate, endothermic reaction and turning yellow. Hmm. I routinely mix up concentrations much above what your solution is and do not encounter this, but thats with laboratory grade potassium nitrate. I think the mulm is a bit of impurities in the mix, as might be this tendency towards yellow. I'll check 'round. Anyone else have thoughts on that?

>Sarah

[The_Nexis_One]

Not sure about the yellow, but it is probably due to the precipitate/impurities.

I've read that the endothermic reaction is normal and part of the KNO3 disolution... dunno. Maybe it's something to do with the exact stuff used in the stump remover... but most of that info was from people dosing to freshwater systems.

Thanks for the reply.

John.

[Samala]

It is normal, you're right. I've just never stuck a bare hand on a beaker with solution mixing before to know it. Yellow color could very well be from the ppt going on.

Oh.. I think you stress out animals/corals by dosing 5ppm in one shot, I try to space it out over the course of a day.. adding a ml here, or a ml there, usually at the time I feed my jawfish. (He's spoiled and fat so that's about three times a day.) I could be wrong of course. For an inexpensive dosing system I was thinking a drip setup like some people use for kalk would be ideal, dont you? I think they use IV drip systems of some sort, though I've never researched it enough myself. Something that is on the list of things to do, but has never gotten done, lol.

>Sarah

[graveyardworm]

As you know I just started my refuge with macro and will someday get seagrass in my lagoon tank. I've started dosing Kents iron directly to the refuge. Right now my NO3 is at 2.5ppm Salifert kit. There is a mixed reef connected to these tanks as well. My anemone/clown tank, and refuge both drain into the seagrass/lagoon which is creating a microbubble problem. So I have a couple questions.

1) How do you feel adding the described mix above and maintaining 5ppm NO3 might affect my mixed reef?

and a little off topic

2) I'm considering designing a tank which the refuge and clown/anem will drain into prior to draining into lagoon. This tank will have baffles and bioballs to eliminate microbubbles. I think this will also help to raise nitrates going into lagoon.

Right now my small piece of C. Peltata is losing some color and I'm afraid it may go sexual. It's small so I'm not to worried about negative effects to the other tanks, but I want to get it straightened out before adding more macro or seagrass.

[graveyardworm]

Also I just bought some stump remover at Lowe's. There was no breakdown of trace stuff on the bottle so I had an employee pull the MSDS sheets to see what they said, they indicated the product was 100% potassium nitrate. The product is called Green Light stump remover, and was available in both powder and liquid forms. I bought the powder.

[The_Nexis_One]

Originally posted by graveyardworm
Also I just bought some stump remover at Lowe's. There was no breakdown of trace stuff on the bottle so I had an employee pull the MSDS sheets to see what they said, they indicated the product was 100% potassium nitrate. The product is called Green Light stump remover, and was available in both powder and liquid forms. I bought the powder.

That powder is exactly what I have... I too read it was 100% from some other web sites. HOWEVER, mine has visible impurities in it.. Black fleck and some chunks of yellow among the yellow crystals (might be clumps of KNO3 for that matter). When I disolve my solution I end up with three notible things (disolution is accelorated by shaking in a sealed container - 1000ml soda bottle):

1) Very cold yellow colored solution with froth on top. (clears more with settling time and the froth disappears as well.)
2) a yellow mulm which settles to the bottom (very fluffy precipitate almost like yellow snow (please no comments about yellow snow ;P ).)
3) small specks of visible impurities which settle to the bottom: black usually.

I am currently treating this solution as I did Kalk. I draw my dosings from mid-column to avoid any impurities from the top/bottom of the solution. This stuff is cheap enough that I'm not concerned about loosing the top and bottom of the solution. When I get close to running out - I'll order some lab grade as replacement.

I didn't run into any visible stress from dosing up to 5ppm. Although I'll not do it again That being said - I did dose an estimated 2ppm before adding the 3ppm dose about 1.5 hours later...

lessons learned.

As for the 'what drains where' question.... I'm sure baffles alone would help w/ the microbubbles, but I'm sure BioBalls wouldn't hurt you NO3 Likewise, a foam block between just 2 baffles woudl help w/ both the bubbles and NO3. Drawing from articles, faqs, and conversations with both Bob Fenner and A. Calfo, It might be that you are trying to pump too much water through your sump. According to Calfo, most of use are pumping a tremendous amount through our sump in search of propper flow in the display. If memory serves, he was recommending locallized flow in the display with clean surface skimming and slow flow in the sump so that the skimmer was able to pull out the settled protiens(reverse settling in this case since protiens float). Congruently, this would allow for micro bubbles to rise and escape the return. I ran into the microbubble issue on my 157g as well. I solved them by using a 90* elbow on the return intake (also helps make sure you don't run the pumped dry) and by slowing down my flow through the sump. I supplimented with Maxijet 1200's - but I had 50/50 LPS and SPS at the time so crazy fast flow in the display wasn't what I was looking for. If you need high flow, a HOB or drilled closed loop is the way to go IMHO...

Oh, and in regards to the 5ppm NO3 in a mixed reef... I think your softies and LPS will thank you. I'm pretty sure that way back when I had the 125g and a nitrate problem I read that 'some' nitrates are fine and used by both softies and LPS, but excess NO3 can cause not only algae problems but also growth retardation as PO4 does... I'm sure 5ppm would be just fine. I know I ran my mixed reef for many many months with NO3 in excess of 20ppm without much ill effect. I say 'much' becuase coral growth wasn't maximized and micro algae was higher than I wanted.

Thanks again.
John.

[graveyardworm]

Okay I started dosing today, but I have no idea what I'm doing, and I cant quite follow Sarahs math. Here's what I did - 500ml RO/DI, 10 tsp stump remover. I didnt get the yellow color you describe John, it did get cold though. I also havent noticed the black specs so much, just a couple. This going into 300g (estimated after sand and LR) right now NO3 is at 2.5ppm, I guess I want to shoot for 5 ppm. So far I've added 1 Tbls, and havent retested NO3, in such a large volume of water I wouldnt expect to see nuch change, but I'm not sure how concentrated the mix is. I'll try to figure it out on my own, but feel free to reply if you have the answer.

[The_Nexis_One]

Well.. by my data entry (using the calc Sarah pointed us to) that shows to raise your system NO3 by 0.06ppm per 1ml dosed.

So... to bring the system up to 5ppm, you need to dose just over 41.5 ml's...!

1ppm addition would equal a 16.5ml dose to the system.


IMHO, I would remix your solution so that you could easily dose the amount you needed each day. I'd calc up an amount that would give me ~.33ppm in my system per dose (in my case 1ml)... In my case, if I need to dose 1ppm, I add 3ml of solution.

According to the calculator, for your system, this would be 55 teaspoons disolved in 500ml RO/DI ... I'm not sure that is even possible.

So... I think you'll have to make your 'daily dose' something larger than a basic multiple of 1ml. Like, maybe dosing a higher base quantity will work better.

If we run the calculator again with 17 teaspoons of solute (KNO3) in 500ml of solvent, it shows that we would get a .1ppm increase of NO3 in the system. So... if we dose 10ml to the system (syringes this size are common if you know a nurse or have a med supply store around), it would increase the system NO3 by 1ppm.

blah blah blah... carry the 2, etc and .... :-)

So.... if it were me, I'd add 7tsp to the current solution and redisolve, this should be the equive of a 17tsp/500ml solution.

This new (stronger) solution could be dosed as needed in multiples of 10ml ....

For example: if you need to raise your NO3 ppm by 2.5ppm (to hit 5ppm), you could dose 25ml over the course of a day to achieve this. Likewise, if you needed to add a daily or 'couple times a week' dose to maintain 5ppm, you could just add the 10ml and your tank NO3 fluctuation would be ~1ppm between doses.

Like I said above, I'm doing this - but the hard way by dosing in multiples of 3... (why.... I dunno ) ... I'll probably remix my solution too in the near future.

Now.... PLEASE check my math and logic before moving forward.


John.

[graveyardworm]

Are you sure math isnt one of your strong points. I remember sarah mentioning something about a calculator, but couldnt find the link. Now I found it. I'm still a little nervous about adding this stuff, and how it might affect micro algae. I'm think I'm gonna start by adding what I've already mixed in 10 ml doses it'll be a little weak, but hopefully I'll be able to see the bad things if any happening slowly. Now to convert tbls to ml. My syringe is maked in tbls.

[The_Nexis_One]

Originally posted by graveyardworm
Are you sure math isnt one of your strong points.

Nah, the further along I got, the worse my grades got... by the time I got through Calculus 4 and was supposed to take Differential eq's... I waved the white flag (or flew the bird... can't remember exactly)... Still, not bad for someone who can barely do algebra, and doesn't spell well (it's sort of an ironic insult to the US education system IMO).

I'm still a little nervous about adding this stuff, and how it might affect micro algae. I'm think I'm gonna start by adding what I've already mixed in 10 ml doses it'll be a little weak, but hopefully I'll be able to see the bad things if any happening slowly.

Very understandible. I also started out slow, partially with the intention of 'checking for problems' and partially because I had a weak solution as well. I've only noticed a slow decrease in my micro's. They certainly haven't grown faster, etc. About a week and a half ago, I added some more critters (hermits/snails/queen conch) and they have been 'going to town' on the micro's in the display. about 1/3 of the rock is cleared from micro growth, but the cyano still returns to these locations a few days after they are cleared. The Queen conch is doing a great job of eating the Cyano, but there's only so much one conch can do... Definetly on my way out of the proverbial woods on this one

Now to convert tbls to ml. My syringe is maked in tbls.

.........google.com

search for "1 tbsp to ml" or "10ml to tbsp" .... gotta love the Google Calculator (and yeah.... I didn't know how to abrev tablespoons either - thank God it's got a spelling corrector too )

John.

[The_Nexis_One]

UPDATE 03/05/06:

I can say I found my first problem/reaction(-) in the tank.

I have a large, encrusting yellow sponge that showed up as a hitchhiker on my initial LR many years ago. It's always grown slow, under the aquascape and has survived being exposed to air many times - even left out in the air for hours at a time...

I can only assume that since it was growing GREAT for the duration after this tank was setup (completely filled the 1" gap between two rocks for a distance of ~6"x3") up until I started dosing Iron and Nitrate. I must not have minded the Nitrates since the system tested at 20+ppm NO3 before I started dosing Iron... I can only assume it must be having a problem with my Iron dosing. There isn't enough macro algae to assume it's a chemical warfare type reaction (if that even applies).

Having been gone all weekend, I didn't dose iron and this morning the sponge looks better than it did when I left. It had shiveled badly actually 'loosing' it's water export pores and it's color had changed from yellow to gray in some locations... they appear to be back this morning. I also found that the macro's have added nearly 10" of collective linear growth (all individual leaves/runners measured growth combined) as of this morning with ~8 new fronds on just the feather caulerpa.... Likewise, the micro growth on the Macro's is coming back! Many of the original fronds are covered in a thin red/brown slimy/hairy coating... so I only assume that the Iron content of the water has decreased (NO3 still tested near 5ppm late last night). I dosed Iron this morning and we'll see if there is any reaction.

John.

[graveyardworm]

Right now I have tons of sponge growth, and havent noticed any ill effects from the iron dosing. Do you have a test kit for iron? I've been monitoring mine, so far it hasnt even registered on the kit yet, and I havent gotten up to a full dose yet.

Is the macro in a fuge or sump compertment? I've also been adding a capful of DT's straight to my fuge every morning, and the pod population just exploded. Along with my seagrass the store threw in some brown gracillaria which was covered in some sort of micro, I almost tossed it but put it in anyway, the pods ( not quite sure on species ) are covering it and cleaned off all the offending micro growth.

For the heck of it I pulled 2 tbsp into the syringe and squirted it into a test kit beaker, and its just a little under 10 ml.

The only nuisance algae I've had for a long time is bubble algae so it wont be hard to tell if micro starts showing up with NO3 dosing.

[Samala]

Good work on the calculations guys! I am not so happy to hear about the interactions with your yellow sponge. Do keep an eye on it and continue to appraise whether or not it is nitrate or iron dosing related, or possibly something else. I still have a hard time imagining macro-chemical warfare, but will admit its a potential issue.

David, like John advised, go slowly with the nitrate. You two are the first real guinea pigs of attempting a fertilized tank with other invert inhabitants sharing quarters and water with the plants afterall. Your observations are really valuable.

The cyano's return in a little perplexing, but lets see how it goes.

>Sarah

[graveyardworm]

Welcome back Sarah, hopefully you're feeling better. So far my NO3 dosing is on the low side, I've only been doing it for a couple days, no adverse affects yet, but no detectable rise in system NO3 either. My Gracillaria sp. is really taking off, it could be the iron dosing attributing to that though, also I've noticed better polyp extension with an acro frag that I've had for about a year.

Curious if you've known anyone to dose NO3 straight into the substrate for seagrass?

[Samala]

Curious if you've known anyone to dose NO3 straight into the substrate for seagrass?

Heehee.. The seagrass biologists have used, in the past, a closed system of simply Halophila in an agar medium with various nutrients added into the gel with a seawater overlay in a small container of, say, 1L. Plants were then germinated on the gel and used the nutrients from the substrate, the water is unfertilized. They use the same general system for germinating lots of terrestrial plants in biotech companies.

So, no, I dont know if anyone has tried injecting the NO3 into the substrate's pore water (the space between sand grains) but it is certainly an awesome idea.

>Sarah

[3D-Reef]

I had a small section of alge go sexual and was going to start dosing kno3 again,but the LFS wanted some.So instead I took a section of grape(5'x8") in to them.
The only bad effect that I can tell is My Dendronephthya gets real dark,and shrinks when I dose kno3.Well, the carnation may not like it,but them clams sure do.
Samala,
A question if you please.
If the no3 & po4 are at many times that of NSWL and these plants are use to growing in NSW.In other words,the plants grow with such limited resources.My question is could the "K" in Kno3 be the limiting factor? And just soaks up the no3 because there is "k" available?
Clay