DSB in a bucket for nitrate control

[dendro982]

That was fast!
Still, what to do (safely) - set the sand in a bigger rubbermaid container with pump and heater and cycle it, and after the cycling finishes - transfer all into the bucket and connect to the main tank?
Thanks.

[the other tang]

I'd think that cycling it then moving it would disturb the layers of dif bacteria that have grown in the bed. I'd rather put the sand in the bucket and recirculate the water to and from another bucket. You could set your bucket in a rubbermaid and let it overflow into it. If you want to keep the bacteria coming, do small wc's and use the old tank water for this when you do the change. Once this is set up I don't think it is to be disturbed. IMO

[dendro982]

I didn't thought about that - good idea, will do.
Thanks!

[ThomasinKind]

Finished all 54 pages of this thread. Very interesting and simple idea. I think I'm going to try this on my setup. IMO the more simple things are the better.

Thanks everyone for sharing your experiences.

[TankRazr]

I feel this is pertinent to the RDSB discussion, however I understand if the powers that be feel it needs to be its own thread.

Originally posted by Safedad
My starting Nitrates are 40 (down from 80 with water changes and nitrasorb). My bucket is in a closed loop following a torpedo filter with carbon and right now bacteria and a flow rate of about 550gph. I have a 55g with 3" maroon (two GBT anemones as best friends), 2 perculas, 4" regal tang, 2.5" coral beauty angel, and 2 blue green chromis. I am just starting to add corals so Coral Beauty Angel might be moving on. I will track the nitrates and let you know my decline rate.
Thanks for the inspiration,
Bob

Safedad,

I'm curious about your thoughts on your experience using the Right Now* bacteria with the TBP**Carbon system. For example did you expect to have nitrates this high with this system?

I'm curious because if I understand you correctly you are looking to lower your nitratres with a RDSB bucket. Which would indicate to me the TBPC system may not be performing as well as one would hope.

Having said that, and if I understand you correctly, your position as stated in your post above appears to negate some, but perhaps not all, of the claims of the right now bacteria and thus the need for it. Are we assuming a little over 9lbs of TBPC? Your turn over and flow looked in line with manufacturers recommendations.

According to the accounts on this thread the RDSB "bucket" method, an approximate $20.00 investment, appears to work well when properly set up. So at the very least it appears as though one could acheive better results for removing nitrates with a RDSB at a fraction of the money spent on the media and equipment needed to run the TBP Carbon system. What are your thoughts?

I do not ask to put you on the spot or to be argumentative. I, like perhaps many people here at RC or in the hobby, am just looking to learn from others (actual experience) in the hopes of acheiveing optimal results for my system(s). I, again like many others, am always intrigued with new, unusual, counter intuitive or perhaps even forgotten approaches.

Thanks for your input.



TankRazr


*Right Now is a desinger bacteria developed for the waste water treatment industry, and marketed on a limited basis to the home aqaurium industry as a 24 hour cycling product.

**TBP Carbon is = Tri-Based Pelletized Carbon...a substrate for the colonizing of bacteria. I believe also desinged initially for the waste water treament industry and also marketed on a limited basis in the home aquarium industry.

[Safedad]

TankRazr: A fair question. I have been able to get the system to run for about 6 months at a time. I have been piddling with it most of the time because of the noise and splashing of the return (which is needed to replace O2 deleted by the bacteria). About a year ago the carbon got crudded up because I didn't backflush it. I now backflush about monthly. That seemed to be the beginning of my problems. I have added a sump (am on my third version now) to contain the splashing and add water volume. I have gone from a Filstar xp3 to a 42 gallon rubbemaid tub to hold things. I have upgraded from the filstar to a 70 Iwaki. I pump to the tank and split off some of the flow to the torpedo and RDSB. I have added a Mag 12 because I didn't feel I had enought flow through the SCWD (which just stopped switching). I have added an auto topoff. I will get some new bacteria this week. I will let you know how my nitrates are in about a month. If they are down I will leave things alone and go into a maintenance mode through the summer. If they don't come down, I will probably switch over to a protein skimmer. Of course, I would like to upgrade to a 90 gallon tank so I can get some more clams (need room in front of the rock). You can decide for yourself whether it has been a fair test.
Will keep you all posted

[Jamokie01]

Just a quick question that I dont believe has been brought up. As far as the eventual leaching of phosphates from the sand goes, this is because phosphate binds with the calcium in aragonite, correct? If that is the case, why then is silica based sand (play sand) not used? Phosphate will not bind with the silica as it does the calcium, right? When the idea of a RDSB was firts presented to me I was told any sand would be fine, so if this isnt being utilized as a buffer, why not use silica based sand?

Thanks for any replies.

[Safedad]

Just a quick note. Day 1 nitrates at 40. Added a bottle of Right Now bacteria. Day 2 nitrates still at 40. Day 3 nitrates down to 20. Not low enough, but moving in the right direction.

[Mr. Gil]

Highjacking a thread??? Sounds ridiculous. Is that illegal or considered a terrorist act? In my opinion there is no such thing. It's called a debate and sharing information. Besides your DSB bucket is a good idea and so is adding sugar to reduce nitrates in a reef is also a good idea i thik even better and even simplistic along with cost effective. Bucket idea requires plumbing, not to mention taking up space aroung the reef tank. We're dealing with water chemistry so if adding sugar has been proven to significantly reduce nitrate without any affects to corals or live stock and water chemistry than I would respect the idea and not try to criticize the person trying to share that to the hobby. You can have this mealy thread of yours, you seem like the possessive type and thats just my opinion.

[DgenR8]

Originally posted by Mr. Gil
Highjacking a thread??? Sounds ridiculous. Is that illegal or considered a terrorist act? In my opinion there is no such thing. It's called a debate and sharing information. Besides your DSB bucket is a good idea and so is adding sugar to reduce nitrates in a reef is also a good idea i thik even better and even simplistic along with cost effective. Bucket idea requires plumbing, not to mention taking up space aroung the reef tank. We're dealing with water chemistry so if adding sugar has been proven to significantly reduce nitrate without any affects to corals or live stock and water chemistry than I would respect the idea and not try to criticize the person trying to share that to the hobby. You can have this mealy thread of yours, you seem like the possessive type and thats just my opinion.

You seem awfully familiar with the players here, not to mention this very long thread, considering that was your first post at RC.

[bilge rat]

Originally posted by crrichey
It could, it is often a reason that people will add sand to begin with. It is why people use phosphate reactors in BB systems. I'm not sure about its effects on denitryfication. If your levels of phosphate were high enough to effect this process than you would already be in deep trouble This is why the bucket idea is so nice, it is very simple to just replace the bucket with a new one with new sand, all new substrate for phosphate to bind to.

I am reading the 40+ page posts on DSB...very informative!
i am planning on setting up a DSB dk and lt
I dont have an overflow and wont be drilling for one either,
so this only leaves the dreaded siphon...i have never ever been able to match the flow from the return pump with the sipon..and knowing that the siphon could fail at any time makes me nervous anyway..
-in order to keep the sand moving in the dark/bucket DSB wont you
need critters in there to keep it moving?
-can anything that stirs the sand live in the darkness of the bucket?
-is there a pump/brand that is so sensitive in terms of flow adjustment
that it is recomended for this type of app?
-other then drilling for an overflow or siphon is there another option for
to and fro flow for a DSB?
thanks
joshuah

[the other tang]

Yes there are other options, but I honestly don't recomend them. Read my posts on this struggle a few pages back. The siphon quickly becomes the secondary issue. It is hard to find a reasonably priced container that will hold under the pressure " how much has been debated in previous pages". I chose to run a maxi in the tank to the rsdb and dump into my hob powerfilter, it worked well till the container busted.

IMO there is no reason to add a sand stirrer to a rdsb, they will eventually die and become a nitrate spike. Long run for a short slide.

[elegance coral]

I am new to this sight and not sure how to do this but I am trying to answer JAMOKIE01's question.
Silica sand has very few pores. The bacteria would be limited to the surface of the grains. With calcium based media the bacteria could live on and within the grains. You would need much more silica sand than calcium based sand to provide the same surface area. It is my appenion that Phospate binding with the calcium based sand is a good thing. The fact that at some point it may begin to leach this phospate back into the system is of no concern to me. Activated carbon can begin to leach its cargo back into our systems but we still use it, and carbon will do this far faster than aragonite. Unless your top off water or food you place in the aquarium is full of phospate you shouldn't have any worries. If it made you feel better you could change part of the sand every year or two. One more point about silica sand is that it can leach silicate into the water. Golden diatoms(that ugly golden brown slimy algae looking stuff) uses silicate in its structure. High levels of silicate in the water can produce these algae blooms. I went through this a long time ago and it took me forever to figure out why I couldn't get rid of this stuff.

[Jamokie01]

Silica sand does not leech silicates into the water.

[elegance coral]

I hope you'r right. I looked through some of my books this morning and can't find what i'm looking for. I'll do more research on this when I get home from work today. I know that in my first reef i had a bad problem with this algae and read about silicates in the water. I removed one silica based rock from the tank and my problem went with it. I know this is not proof that the rock was to blame.
Man, this is really gonna suck if I'm wrong. I have been telling people for years to stay away from silica based materials. I hate being wrong!

[the other tang]

Read Randy's article on silica. It is not proven in a lab, but it looks as if any leaching would be so slow it would actually be beneficial to the system. Randy even talked about dosing silica in his tank, an interestinf read. Don't feel bad about the advice, I did the same thing after my LFS told me it would cause issues. I used it in mine and still have never had visable diatoms in my tank.

[elegance coral]

Where can I find Randy's article on silica?

[the other tang]

http://advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2003/feature.htm

it was in the rc chemistry forum with all of Randy's articles, FYI it is a great resource if you have an issue in the future.

[elegance coral]

Thanks! I found it.
I also feel much better about my position on this matter. He did the test with the bucket and proved that silica sand does leech silica into the water. The question now is wether or not the system has low silica to begin with. I live in Florida. Half of the state is made of silica sand. We have silica in our tap water. Back in the day it was hard to get good clean water for my tank so I ended up with high levels of silica to begin with. I guess adding any silica based material to that old system was enough to fule the diatom bloom. Today this is just not much of a concern. I don't know what is worse. Feeling like I was wrong about silica sand or being old school. lol.

[pitogo]

Originally posted by Atomahawk
Just a personal comment. I know this hobby can become expensive and DIY cuts down on some of the cost. But please remember that your LFS needs to make some money. Livestock is not a huge money maker in general and requires a lot of time and expense. From personal experience I have seen many people ask for recommendations and advice on setting up there tanks just to turn around and make their purchase elsewhere to save a couple of bucks. Mail order, Big Box stores etc. don't support your hobby, all they do is is price and sell. If your fair with the LFS store when it comes to purchasing your dry goods, I'm sure the owner or managers will be more than happy to work with you to make it a bit more affordable. Remember a good LFS works hard to make money and have a lot of expense's to cover to stay in operation. If they continue to get cut out of the loop for a few bucks, your only hurting yourself.

If a moderator feels this part of my post is out of line I won't be insulted if it's erased.

Best regards [/B]

Recently I went out and purchased a Euro-Reef RS-80 from a LFS, yes I've been researching prices, they charged $319.99 + NJ tax 7% total is $342.39 I paid.

MarineDeopt.com sells the same exact skimmer for $248.99 + SH for a total of $253.04

The difference was $89.35. Do you think its worth almost $90 to purchase that skimmer from a LFS? Plus the gas to drive there? I'm still not to sure. Do I regret it? Right now, not really. If I had to do it over again will I? Maybe not. I will go to those LFS that are helpful and have great reasonable prices. And for other items its the internet for me from now on. Tired of getting ripped a new aaa hole.

[a4twenty]

Originally posted by pitogo

MarineDeopt.com sells the same exact skimmer for $248.99 + SH for a total of $253.04

$4.05 for shipping a skimmer? doesn't sound right .

[don954]

has anyone figured the max effective depth of a remote sand-bed? I have 30 gallons of sand in a barrel that i removed from my main tank, i want to turn it into a DSB in a bucket, or a box or whatever is required to effectively use it as a nitrate digester. Right now it is about 40" deep, would that be effictive or a waste of sand?

[mlb75]

I'm also curious about that as well as what's the general consensus on the size of the RDSB needed to be effective. I've got a 180 that I was thinking of adding one to but want to add it inside my existing sump (a 75G tank). My thought was to build an acrilic tank to go inside it 17x10x14 deep, run the sand 10-12" deep and have the output flow into my fuge which will be the same size and finally return to the sump. Does that sound effective or should I change dimensions etc.

[mlb75]

Another question, does shape of the bed really matter or is it more an issue of overall volume? IE is it better to be 12 deep by 20 long and 8 wide or 13 long and 12 wide or doesn't it matter since it's the same overall volume?

[jackryan]

Originally posted by percula99
I set up my RDSB a few months ago and was running with nitrates over 50ppm all the time. I tried everything to get them down and nothing worked. Since the RDSB my nitrates are almost undetectable. I used a 17 gallon Rubbermaid Roughneck container and put 180 pounds of aragonite sand in it. It is eleven inches deep. I had a problem with a rut being dug out by the water entering the container so I made a spray bar out of PVC. I use a Mag5 with a pre-filter attached to feed water to the RDSB. The RDSB is in the laundry room next to my tank room, so I had to drill holes in the wall to run the hoses through. There is always a cover on, but I took it off so you can see how it works. I hope this helps somebody out.

Hi there !

May I ask what kind of sand grade you used for this set-up?

Thanks,
-JackRyan