Aquarium with no liverock, is this possible? - Page 3

crrichey · #51 07/06/2004, 01:21 PM

You want a reason to have liverock in the aquarium? It provides fish a place to hide, a place for people to place corals that don't live on sand, increases pod populations for dragonets and sea horses, just looks good.

hottuna · #52 07/06/2004, 03:53 PM

flcl787: so does aragocrete,dead coral skeletons,or dead rock...you can introduce those pods separately.....you're not blowin' my skirt up with these answers...

crrichey · #53 07/06/2004, 04:02 PM

That is true, but all of it can be done at once, while you have to wait for your aragocrete or dead coral skeletons (which by the way is IMO unethical) to become populated with pods and other fana. You will never have the diversity with aragocrete or skeletons that you can find with liverock or aquacultured.

Scuba Dog · #54 07/06/2004, 04:10 PM

Im sure it could be done to an extent but you would be walking a fine line, but In love the look of the live rock...pretty much all corals reefs are live rock based.......

Frick-n-Frags · #55 07/06/2004, 04:18 PM

hottuna: my old UG filter FO tank from 25 years ago eventually clogged with detritus. If you have fish and feed the fish and have a bacteria population to process ammonia, you will get detritus and cementing. You can't just pin that on LR.

The easiest way to introduce several hundred different types of critters is hitch them in on fresh LR

There is no law saying you HAVE to have LR in your reef tank, and once again I am wondering, of those people with no-LR tanks, how are they doing over the long haul especially WRT the coral population.

If you really look into those tubs or trays at tropicorum, there is all kinds of pieces of rock in there under the corrugated fiberglass sheets and even lots of cinderblocks. Plus his system is so huge it really isn't relvant to the normal sized home system.

Doppler · #56 07/06/2004, 04:29 PM

I started my nano about 4 weeks ago with all base rock about 7 pounds and one 3/4 pound piece of live rock my mantis is living in.I have calupra in the fuge.I had a very small cycle,if you'd even call it that.Today the coraline alge is starting to cove the base rocks and back of the tank.No sand at all either.I just put in 2 small pieces of monti digi about a week ago and so far they're doing great.I've only had to clean the glass twice since its setup.I'll keep you posted

crrichey · #57 07/06/2004, 04:50 PM

You did add liverock though, right, to seed the base rock?

Doppler · #58 07/06/2004, 06:43 PM

just 1 piece about 3/4 to 1 pound.There won't be any fish in this tank.

crrichey · #59 07/06/2004, 08:03 PM

If you can try to take some pics and keep us updated.

Reaper · #60 07/06/2004, 08:26 PM

If you have no LR you could reduce nitrates and P04 to zero with 1 drop of vodka each day.

cordell · #61 07/06/2004, 08:29 PM

It seems to me that no matter if you start out with live rock, or if you start out with aragocrete or dead base rock, it eventually becomes live rock. Then you have live rock in your tank, so where is the argument? Are you talking about not having any rocks at all in your tank?

crrichey · #62 07/06/2004, 09:22 PM

Yes, that was the origonal question, but somewhere down the line it changed. I wish someone could show an aquarium that does not have any liverock.

hottuna · #63 07/06/2004, 09:36 PM

frick and frags : if you use the right size substrate with your undergravel-it should never clog...the detritus gets broken down into finer and finer particles by bacterial action ,,,the fine silt gets sucked through the ug plates ..and re-cycled.....that was the whole premise of the tanks i described that i saw in the early eighties....

crrichey · #64 07/06/2004, 09:40 PM

So where exactly does the nitrate go then? Does it help fuel the micoalgae growth?

Navyblue · #65 07/06/2004, 09:43 PM

Wait a moment, what is the question now?

If it is pertaining to the original title "Aquarium with no liverock, is this possible?" The answer is definitely possible, even without dead rocks, before the 80s people had been doing that.

If whether liverock is beneficial or not, I do not deny the advantage of having liverock, but just isn't a must.

crrichey · #66 07/06/2004, 09:53 PM

I would really like to see some recent examples of aquariums without liverock. Yes, back in the 80's they ran tanks without liverock, but not many people were able to keep sps corals or anything too difficult.

Navyblue · #67 07/06/2004, 10:02 PM

Yes without LR there will be more restriction on the kind of livestock you wish to keep, those that need heavier plankton supply and pods, but other than that it is just as fine.

crrichey · #68 07/06/2004, 10:48 PM

Wow, I didn't even notice that I hit the 1000 post mark, feels like forgeting your birthday or something like that

.

hottuna · #69 07/07/2004, 07:37 AM

flcl787!......if the substrate is 4+ inches the lower regions will become anaerobic and provide some denitrification....the problem with those early 80's tanks was the use of dls and later bioballs which were just nitrate factories.....speaking of 1000 posts ...lets get this thread up there !!

Frick-n-Frags · #70 07/07/2004, 09:14 AM

Sounds good in theory, but eventually inert mineral-based sediment is created which just collects. You would actually have to get under there and siphon that stuff out to keep it going steady state. Like diatom skeletons and precipitates and bits of substrate that have been abraded off etc. And bacteria will coat that, which then again leads to cementing.

There is no silver bullet for sedimentation, it is created in all types of tanks containing sealife. the different physical situations however do affect how you can or would deal with it though.

We were kicking around the ultimate substare in a thread once not too long ago and the idea that was kicked around was some kind of wide gapped UG plates with rubble rock on top(basically what you have mentioned: large grade size to let the dust fall through) and then some kind of rotating or sweeping, powerful water return and run the thing reverse so that the dust gets blown over to one collection spot where it can be removed.

I'll bet it could be done with eggcrate. Anyway, I guess we are on the same page here.

My whole desire for LR is the massive biodiversity that comes in with it which can't really be built up from nothing. I don't consider bacteria coated chunks of inert material LR, more just super large sized gravel in a wet filter or at best ultra lo-grade baserock.

crrichey · #71 07/07/2004, 02:58 PM

Sounds interesting, could you posible come up with a diagram?

hottuna · #72 07/07/2004, 03:09 PM

frick n frags : do you remember the thread ? i would be interested in reading it....like i said previously i am having a problem locating the substrate i want...it is about an inch long ...like broken acrotips ,very pourous....might have been called "coral rubble" ...stuff had an incredible amt of surface area and stacked nicely to avoid packing....any ideas on where to find this ???? anyone ???? i will put together a test tank asap once i locate the proper substrate.......thanx

hottuna · #73 07/07/2004, 04:32 PM

i just spoke to a buddy of mine who runs a wholesaler in cali...he's sending me pics of the exact coral rubble i described....he's using it in his systems with great results....stay tuned

crrichey · #74 07/07/2004, 06:34 PM

Look hottuna, I just want to say that I don't want to argue the liverock matter anymore, I just want to find out about people's experiences with not using liverock or any sort of base rock. So by-gones be by-gones, post some pics of that coral rubble, ok?

hottuna · #75 07/07/2004, 09:41 PM

flcl787!...no-one is arguing here ! just a very lively and informative discussion...i am happy you started this thread ...it got me thinking again...even phoned up an old reef buddy of mine who's an engineer ,to kick around some ideas and compare notes of our memories of the "no live rock" tanks we both saw together 23 yrs ago...questioning the status quo is what makes this hobby exciting !!