Copper or Hyposalinity

[SheilaF]

Which works better and is easier on the fish?

[stingythingy45]

Hyposalinity

[kevin2000]

Hypo is easier to administer and less stressful on the fish ... a refractometer would be helpful. However Hypo isn't always successful where copper is (assuming you keep the copper concentration correct).

[KCZoanthid]

Hypo won't kill the Ich on the fish. It only kills the free-swimming cysts and breaks the life cycle. The ones on the fish are dug in deep and hypo has no effect on them until they drop off.

Do either Hypo OR copper. NEVER both together. Dosing copper in a Hypo tank will most certainly kill your fish. It makes the copper much more potent. Copper is dangerous to the fish anyway--and dosing it in a Hypo tank where is actually turns out stronger can kill the fish or do permanent damage to them.

You can do Hypo first to kill the ones in the water. Wait for the fish to show signs of recovery after a few days or a week. Most fish will be completely Ich free after a couple weeks in Hypo.

I wouldn't do copper unless I couldn't break the cycle by using Hypo first.

[stevensun]

Agree. Hypo is the least harsh on fish but it takes much longer time. If the symptom is quite serious already, I'd do a fresh water dip with Methylene Blue before starting hypo treatment.

[kevin2000]

My 02

While using both copper and hypo at the same time doesn't make any sense to me and I would not advise anyone to do so - I am uncertain why copper would become more toxic with less salinity.

To my knowledge neither copper or hypo has much impact on ich on the fish ... neither are considered a quick cure. Further - if you have ich in your show tank then your stuck with 5-6 weeks of fallow time ... if you don't then you should QT your fish for at least 4 weeks whether your using hypo or copper. As such selection of either treatment isn't really time dependent.

[KCZoanthid]

Originally posted by kevin2000
My 02

While using both copper and hypo at the same time doesn't make any sense to me and I would not advise anyone to do so - I am uncertain why copper would become more toxic with less salinity.

Copper becomes much more soluble in lower salinity. Dosing copper at "normal" amounts in lower salinity WILL lead to levels that are dangerously high and could kill your fish.

Do some research. Read up on it.

I did, and thats why I said it. Just trying to help people with facts, and not speculation or guesswork.

[kevin2000]

Perhaps a link would help? I still have no clue why a metal would disolve quicker in a hypo tank ... a properly maintained hypo tank has the same PH as any SW tank - if there is a chemical reason why this occurs I would like you to explain.

[KCZoanthid]

Why should I spend the time to explain it to you?

READ THE DAMN STICKYS AT THE TOP OF THIS FORUM!!

The information is there. Educate yourself. I'm not here to hold your hand. Find out for yourself.

[kevin2000]

Thanks for your help .. suppose thats your way of saying "don't have a clue".

[KCZoanthid]

[KCZoanthid]

Here you go:

Read this article and when you get towards the bottom of the FIRST post, you will see a red highlighted area warning NOT to dose copper at low salinity levels.

http://www.reefland.com/forum/marine...-problems.html

[JHemdal]

Hmmm,

Re: not using copper and hyposalinity - good advice, not quite the right reason though. First of all, copper does not become "much more soluble in lower salinity". In hyposaline conditions, there is less calcium for the copper to bind with, so it is more active - it is still dissolved though (semantics, I know). However, since ionic copper / citric acid solutions always need to be dosed with a test kit, this is of no issue, as only the free copper is being tested, so you just end up just adding less. For organically chelated coppers whose manufacturers expect a certain proportion to be "scavenged" by existing calcium, (and which test kits are not used) having a hyposaline condition can be dangerous.
Finally, it is most likely the dual edge sword of having the fish exposed to the stress of copper AND the stress of hyposalinity at the same time that kaks the fish off when you run both treatments.
Formalin and hyposalinity can be used for acute Cryptocaryon infections (where hypo by itself would be too slow).
Remember, it is a FACT that many fish develop Uronema infections while undergoing hyposalinity! Many times I have resolved a Cryptocaryon infection, only to have the fish die from Uronema. Uronema is almost 100% misdiagnosed. Without a microscope, even experts will think it is a bacterial disease, rather than the protozoan scourge that it is. This is seen in the cases where a person reports that they "cured" Cryptocaryon using hypo, but their fish succumbed to a secondary bacterial infection. The problem with Uronema is that once it gets started, hypersalinity won't knock it back, it just keeps going....

Jay Hemdal

[KCZoanthid]

I knew all that. But for the purpose of this discussion, I simply wanted people to know not to use copper and hypo at the same time.

If the copper manufacturer recommends X number of drops per gallon at a specific gravity of 1.024 and you were to use those same number of drops at 1.009 specific gravity(hyposalinity), it would create a lot more copper in the water and could kill the fish. Copper is stressful to fish anyway. Dosing it during hypo could cause lethal amounts.

Thats all I was trying to say. I just didn't go into extreme detail about it. The trouble with internet forums is that as soon as you try to help somebody and put out some information that -- while it may be perfectly true, it isn't the "norm"-- people start to challenge you and want facts and links. My take on this, is that if you read something you don't believe 100%, you should go look it up for yourself and educate yourself. We all have different personalities and we all know that sometimes things don't come across in the typed form as well as they would if we were having a beer and a conversation in person.

[paulamrein]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JHemdal
[B]Hmmm,

Remember, it is a FACT that many fish develop Uronema infections while undergoing hyposalinity! Many times I have resolved a Cryptocaryon infection, only to have the fish die from Uronema. Uronema is almost 100% misdiagnosed. Without a microscope, even experts will think it is a bacterial disease, rather than the protozoan scourge that it is.

How does a fresh water parasite come into a saltwater enviornment? These things are animals, they can't just come into a system where their conditions become more favorable.
Considering you used the FACT word in all caps, I'm afraid I'll have to call you out on it and show me an aritcal or link please. I'm not trying to argue, just curious. You may even change my methods of QT if you can convince me. It could be all true, let us know.

[JHemdal]

paulamrein,

I put that in CAPS to make a point that many people miss. Uronema is not a FW parasite, it is brackish. Please read the last line that says reverting to hypersalinity won't knock it back - once it gets a foothold. Uronema is an ubiquitous protozoan that infects the fish during periods of low salinity.
You asked for a reference - sorry, this is pretty much a mis-identified issue, like I said. There are a couple references to it in my book, "Advanced Marine Aquarium Techniques" - specifically in the drug dosing section:

Anti-protozoan treatments (external):
==========================
Copper sulfate: 0.20 ppm for 14 days
Formalin: 20 to 25 ppm every day for 3 to 5 days
Freshwater dip: 5 minutes twice a day (control only, not a cure)
Osmotic therapy: Specific gravity of 1.014 for 10 days (Watch for concurrent Uronema infections)
Metronidazole: 10,000 ppm in food for 5 days (Helpful for internal protozoans as well)


Jay Hemdal

[paulamrein]

My point is, it has to be introduced into the tank. It doesn't develop, if Uronema present it would have to already be infecting the fish. No link or reference. No proof, no belief. Sorry, no hard feelings.

[Paul B]

As for the original question I would use copper.
I have been using it for almost 40 years and never had a problem when the correct dose was used. It will kill your fish if overdosed as will hypo if used incorrectly. Copper is a poison as is any medication for fish or humans. Even aspirin will kill you.
I like copper mixed with formalin and if I need a cure in a day I would use copper, formalin and quinicrine hydrocloride but the copper alone or with formalin is usually sufficient. If a fish is in severe distress I would always use copper/formalin as hypo may not be fast enough to affect a cure before the fish dies.
I have used it for extended periods, even months with no problems. If it were not for copper there would not be a salt water fish hobby. Wholesalers and retailers use copper and they use a lot of it.
Paul

[JHemdal]

Umm, no hard feelings, but you asked for a reference and I gave you a solid one and then you ignored it.
I really don't care if you agree with me or not, but for your fishes sake you ought to keep an open mind, especially about something you aren't familiar with (Uronema is not an animal as you stated).
Notice that I said Uronema is "ubiquitous". It is also a facultative parasite. Put these two things together is this is what you get: a widespread protozoan that can be isolated in virtually any marine aquarium.
It spends most if its time free-living. Under some conditions (notably hyposalinity) it will become a parasite, usually dermally, but also intracellular (very nasty when it infects organs).


Jay Hemdal

p.s. - If you want more references, Google Hemdal and Uronema, although most of this is related to Uronema infecting Mysid shrimp cutlures.

[stingythingy45]

"Formalin and hyposalinity can be used for acute Cryptocaryon infections (where hypo by itself would be too slow)."

I used Rid ich+ by Korden(turned the silicone blue in a 10 gallon) for 3 days.
Now I have the fish in hypo 1.010 for a week now.
Good luck with whatever treatment you try.

[paulamrein]

I asked for a reference, and you plugged your book. I've googled both and do not coincide with your findings. Let's drop it, so SheilaF can find the help they need. For me, hypo has always worked with no ill effect on them at all.

[JHemdal]

paulamrein,

I did not "plug" my book until you wrote, "I'm afraid I'll have to call you out on it and show me an aritcal or link".

As I said, this is new information and not widely written about, so I had to use my own material as a reference. For you then to completely disregard that information and accuse me of plugging my book is really rude.

Finally, I must apologize - the reference I gave you previously was not the full one. I was in a hurry and couldn't find it in my files. I knew it was in the book somewhere, but I didn't have the time to locate it. I did so this morning, here is the full discussion about this issue with Uronema: (It is in the environmental quality chapter under osmoregulation rather than the fish health chapter)

Hyposmostic therapy for marine fish disease treatment:
This is the much touted “low salinity treatment” for the marine protozoan fish parasite Cryptocaryon irritans. The basic premise is that most marine fish can tolerate a lower salt level than can this protozoan parasite. Reducing the specific gravity of the aquarium the proper amount for an adequate length of time does often eliminate active infections of C. irritans. Generally, this means maintaining the fish at a specific gravity fully half that of normal seawater (1.0125) for 14 to 20 days. The difficulties show up when aquarists modify the treatment due to extenuating circumstances. For example, since not all fish can tolerate that low of a specific gravity, some aquarists try the treatment at a slightly higher specific gravity (say 1.016) for a longer period (30+ days). This should never be attempted. There is a particularly virulent protozoan named Uronema sp. that thrives in brackish water. Given enough time, it very often infects the fish and is very difficult to treat. The symptoms of Uronema mimic that of an external bacterial infection (open red sores, scales falling off, cloudy fins). Even the most experienced aquarist will usually misdiagnose an Uronema infection unless they have access to a microscope and look for the protozoan with that device. There are other anti-protozoan treatments that are less risky and much more effective than this treatment. Remember, while the salinity of an aquarium housing marine fish can be reduced almost instantaneously, raising the salt level back to normal values at the conclusion of the treatment must be done very slowly – even over a period of three or four days.

NOW we can drop this......

Jay Hemdal

[paulamrein]

We can drop this as soon as you explain why all of the data suggests a salinity drop or FW dip as treatment. Not to mention there are all kinds of Uronema listed. Are you referring to a specific one in particular? Or the genius in general? I didn't mean to be rude, I just found it odd to give a reference to something that you wrote when trying to prove a point. It was almost a "because I said so" type of suggestion. I just don't see how Hypo salinity can be both the cause and the cure for this parasite. Or are the 20 or so sites that I found the same information telling us that Uronema is a common parasite found in seawater salinity as well as freshwater. They prey on the weak fish, your argument could be that hypo makes the fish weak therefore more prone. You have said it yourself it is new information. Most people are skeptical of new information with all the snake oils and spice rack cures circulating. I don't even mean to be argumentative. I just want something solid to wrap my brain around. From more than one source.

[JHemdal]

paulamrein,

The exact species involved is unknown. The genus is Uronema. It is sometimes written as "Uronema cf. marinum" with the cf. standing for "conferre" or "similar to".
I think you have probably come across Uronema information on the site "aquatic community". Their un-referenced, and unattributed information is simply wrong. If you use low salinity to treat a Uronema infection like they suggest, the fish will die!
I did some looking around and found that there are a few other people beginning to see the connection between increased Uronema and low salinity treatments - notably the curator at the Tenn. Aquarium and Pete Giwojna, the seahorse expert. I first became aware of the issue in 1985 while an aquarist at the Shedd Aquarium, so I guess it isn't all that new....just something that hasn't made the cross-over to the hobby side yet.


Jay

[Pescado Racing]

I am also a curator in AZ, and have heard hypo can lead to Uronema thriving within a community. I think it relates more in large aquaria with large populations of fish. As opposed to smaller home displays with much lower animals under care, hypo seems to be a great QT method. Just what I've noticed...