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#1
03/07/2007, 02:21 AM
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Starphire, should I get it tempered?
Okay... the tank is 48x30x20" high... all 1/2"... front and sides are Starphire. The cost to get the bottom and back tempered was nothing... like $30. Im considering then, should I just get the front and sides tempered as well? I would imagine that it would eliminate the 'facing' issues and the need for a short-wave UV light to determine the 'tin' side and the 'air' side. I know I dont need it for a 20" tall tank (with 3" euro-bracing all around too), but are their any drawbacks exactly? I know tempered glass is stronger usually, but if you hit it on the edge with enough force... there goes the whole panel. Does the same hold true for Starphire when it is tempered?
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"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it" -Al Einstein |
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#2
03/07/2007, 08:42 PM
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Glass is glass Starphire and other low iron glass are allmost the same
they just have less iron oxide added to the mix
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Sometimes I question the wisdom of my actions, but more often I seem to be acknowledging the stupidity of them. |
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#4
03/07/2007, 11:20 PM
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Tempered glass is also not perfectly flat. It does deform slightly when it is tempered. This may or may not be an issue depending on who does the tempering.
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#5
03/07/2007, 11:31 PM
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Sorry i did not finish before posting
I would not bother with tempering the rest of the tank becuse if you do and you hit it hard and it's tempered it will explode and you have no chance of saving anything, but if it non-tempered glass it will crack and you might have time to get every thing out before it falls apart
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Sometimes I question the wisdom of my actions, but more often I seem to be acknowledging the stupidity of them. |
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#6
03/08/2007, 12:19 AM
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True, thats what I was thinking... if the front edges are exposed corners, then chipping it and having the whole panel blow out is more possible.
Im getting the glass from Milwaukee Plate Glass. Im able to build this tank myself for 1/2 the cost of what miracles quoted me. Bean, thanks for mentioning that fact. It was in the back of my head, but this place is good... real good... so tempering may not be a big positive... or at least not worth the risk of a distortion in the front glass. Okay... just the bottom and back to be tempered then. Ill admit, the back being tempered was just something I added in... but maybe I will remove that as well... only the bottom needs tempering really. NOW, for another question (ill ask here before I have to make another thread). Anyone know of a good place to buy a short-wave UV lamp? The method for determining the tin side and air side on the glass is with a UV-C lamp. I thought maybe I could get away with a germicidal UV lamp, as it emits UV-C, but I guess not. I tried it on some starphire I have and neither side glowed (tin side should glow, and this is the side that faces out to prevent stress pits from forming). So I suppose I need a specialty UV-C lamp, er, shortwave UV lamp. Any ideas? Bean... please tell me you have a magic connection like with those Alita pumps...lol.
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"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it" -Al Einstein |
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#7
03/08/2007, 12:28 AM
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I just went to the glass shop today! Got a quote on Starphire,
1/4 $6.00 SQF 3/8 $8.00 SQF How much you paying for your 1/2?If you dont mind. Also I have never heard of facing the "tin" side out. Why is this an issue? Also, why are you not using 3/8? |
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#8
03/08/2007, 01:01 AM
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Its $12 per square foot of the 1/2" according to the invoice (dirt cheap). Flat polishing is .20 per linear foot, and tempering is $2.50 per square foot. The holes are $25 each.
Starphire needs to be placed so that the 'tin side' faces out, and the air side faces the water. Its not the pressure of the water in a direct sense, but the pressure of the water causes the glass to press out, right? Well, the tin side is under greater internal pressure than the air side from when it cools, so when the glass bends under stress, this creates a pressure along the glass surface (like leaf springs on a car), and if its the air side getting this pressure, little pinhole sized pockets of glass will start popping out of the surface. To detect the tin side, you are supposed to use a UV-C or shortwave UV lamp... although I wonder if UV-A (a blacklight) wouldnt work as well. AIR IN/ TIN OUT.
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"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it" -Al Einstein |
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#9
03/08/2007, 01:40 AM
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if you have a good volt meter you can test , they make a small hand held tester that they just put on the glass and it buzz's , becuse there is a small amount of tin left on the glass
i wish i could get some photos to come out good but when you take a photo of the glass coming out it's so bright my camara cant handle it
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Sometimes I question the wisdom of my actions, but more often I seem to be acknowledging the stupidity of them. |
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#10
03/08/2007, 02:08 AM
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Hmm... good to know. So it only buzzes on the tin side, eh? Im in EE, so a volt meter is easy to find. Any idea on the range/accuracy I need?
Hey, someone who knows about glass!!!
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"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it" -Al Einstein |
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#11
03/08/2007, 06:29 AM
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Hahn,
Do you overthink everything?? I have 1/2" Starfire laminated together to 1" thickness.........and never heard anything about an "air" side or a "tin" side. It's been 5 years now and the glass is perfect, so I guess I got lucky??? Relax a little John
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"The state is the great fiction by which everybody tries to live at the expense of everybody else." Frederick Bastiat |
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#13
03/08/2007, 09:27 AM
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i would think that the glass supplier should be able to tell which is which. i would insist on having them lable the sides.
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#15
03/08/2007, 11:10 AM
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Depends upon water depth.
I used 1" and my water depth is about 4.5 feet. I'm sure someone will chime in with the exact calculations. But it is really not so much the length of the glass that matters as the water pressure and that is height dependent. John
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"The state is the great fiction by which everybody tries to live at the expense of everybody else." Frederick Bastiat |
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#16
03/08/2007, 12:24 PM
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I Built a tank 72*36*30H. It has a starfire front and most of the sides including the starfire is tempered.
The whole tank came out to$1300 compared to almost 4K I was quoted. The tank was built onsite. I tempered the front because I have young kids. tempered is stronger. though a bit scary because you can't polish any scratches. To protect the edges I siliconed on aluminum angles. on the outside. Looks quite nice and covers up the seams. Make sure you request that the glass is wrapped at the factory! I didn't know about this and many of my pieces came with minor scratches including the starfire. |
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#17
03/08/2007, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Yes, I'd like to know how to calculate this. |
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#18
03/08/2007, 01:19 PM
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While the pressure on the glass grows with depth, length of the glass is important.
The longer the glass the more bending stress and the thicker the glass is required (for strenght) to avoid deflection. Using a eruoframe brace at the top helps stiffen the glass pane. Using tempered glass for the same thickness means that the glass can deflect more before breaking. When I built my tank i downloaded a spreadsheet somewhere which figured out safety factor and glass thickness. It did not take into account euroframeing or tempering. One thing I did on my tank was to put another frame at the bottom of the tank. I used 3" wide piece of glass glued to the bottom pane and to the sides. This greatly increases holding strength. Normally the sides are held to the bottom by having the silicone in "shear" force (or ripping) which is the worst type of joint. By putting a brace along the bottom this holding force becomes tensile for which silicone is much better. You also get a more watertight fit. Most of the big tanks I've seen will have this. My old production tank gave way along the front pane right at the bottom center where the greatest force is.It deflected almost a half inch while it was pulling itself apart. |
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#19
03/08/2007, 01:25 PM
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http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/aqu...customtank.htm
http://www.fnzas.org.nz/articles/tec...lassthickness/ More than you ever wanted to know. |
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#20
03/08/2007, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
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#21
03/08/2007, 01:48 PM
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johnf, no, Im not overthinking... something tells me that either the Starphire you bought was tempered to put it into the laminate, or that you lucked out.
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...9&goto=newpost douggiestyle, I would think they should be able to tell me which side is which too, but on the phone so far, they arent familiar with the need, nor the method. Maybe Ill call back and try talking with one of the glass-techs or something... maybe they know what I mean. OR maybe they didnt know what I meant about finding the facing with UV, but they would know about finding it with a volt-meter. Otherwise, Im thinking that even without a volt-meter, I might just be able to take a 9v battery, some wire, and a LED and see if one side creates a circuit when I arc the wires over the glass. Seems like it would work to me... and if one side allows the LED to light up, and the other doesnt... I have my solution! OTOH, if both or neither light up the LED... then Im back to square one!
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"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it" -Al Einstein Last edited by hahnmeister; 03/08/2007 at 02:02 PM. |
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#22
03/13/2007, 04:04 AM
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Wow,
I guess I did get lucky! Hahn, Why not get one of these to find the tin side: http://www.petsmart.com/global/produ...45524441779645 Only costs $16 and looks like it might work. If not, you return it to petsmart. John
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"The state is the great fiction by which everybody tries to live at the expense of everybody else." Frederick Bastiat |
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#23
03/13/2007, 12:50 PM
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That looks like a UV-A bulb (blacklight). Im not sure it will work. FWIW, I did find a shortwave one on ebay for $29.
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"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it" -Al Einstein |
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#24
03/13/2007, 07:09 PM
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Hahn I would think just setting the VOM to test for continuity would do the trick. Should'nt need a certain range or accuracy, as long as you have continuity you will know which side is the 'tin' side...unless of course both sides show continuity then...???? HTH
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#25
03/13/2007, 07:24 PM
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Thats a good idea. Ill have to try that.
__________________
"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it" -Al Einstein |
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