Lets RAISE my Nitrates, using KNO3!

[Horace]

This is going to sound crazy to many of you, but I think I may try an experiment on my tank with KN03. The K (Pottassium) will be used to help maintain/raise the K level in the tank to natural levels, and the No3 will be used to add a bit of nitrate to my tank....YES, I did say I want to ADD nitrate. This may sound completely contrary to some folks intentions, but in a tank that has light colors on some corals, adding a bit of nitrate can actually help by providing a nitrogen source for the corals WITHOUT adding phosphate, which will stunt growth and effect coral colors. It is my opinion that a bit of nitrate in a system is actually benefical in a low nutrient environment because it provides a food to the corals. The trick is to not over-do it. If you over-do it, your corals will brown up because of an excess of Zoox. I figured about 5-10ppm would be good.

The reason I think this is because my buddy, who has a zeovit tank (I do as well), has always had trouble knocking out his nitrates. He says his tank routinely runs ~10ppm, but his phosphates are ~.01 (measured by Hanna). He claims pretty much all BB systems (w/out a remote sandbed) have nitrates. I tend to believe him because he runs a Bubble King skimmer and runs Zeovit, and has about 100x turnover in his 240g, which tells me his nutrients probably cant get much lower given his system, unless he were to add some sort of other bio filtration. Anyway, his colors and growth are out of this world amazing. Most of my corals have great color as well, and came from his tank, but his tank brings color to a whole new level. I think my colors suffer from nitrogen limitation and that is the reason why my corals are less rich, and some grow slowly. I would also like to note that my Chaeto has NEVER grown for the past 2 years and my tank tests 0ppm nitrate when tested by Salifert, even when I used the 10x magnification method. I have pretty much tried everything else to get some of my corals to fully color, including adding iron, Amino Acids, Coral Vitalizer, K-Balance, changing lighting from T5s to Metal Halide, doubling feedings, etc etc so this is the last thing I can think of. I know I can probably attack the nitrogen limitation by adding more fish or feeding more, but that will also increase phosphate and that is what I am trying to prevent.

[dvanacker]

interesting theory.......keep us updated please.

[antonsemrad]

I can probably attack the nitrogen limitation by adding more fish or feeding more, but that will also increase phosphate and that is what I am trying to prevent.

Chaeto has NEVER grown for the past 2 years

Chaeto is a very effective phosphate binder.

Corals have evolved to get thier nitrogen from organic sorces, (food) not inorganic (kno3).

I think that food would be a better nitrogen source than kn03.

From the Food of Reefs to the Food of Corals

"The zooxanthellae are then carefully controlled by their coral host by being subjected to nitrogen limitation. As mentioned in last month’s article, nitrogen levels in coral reef waters are typically extraordinarily low, with most being found as ammonia. This is in contrast to aquaria where the dominant nitrogen species is usually nitrate. Nitrogen is the end all-be all for zooxanthellae growth and reproduction. By limiting nitrogen in the form of excretion products, the polyp keeps the zooxanthellae in the numbers and density that maximize photosynthetic efficiency for its own use. Using several released compounds, most of which are still unidentified, the polyp stimulates the zooxanthellae to release virtually all of the products of its photosynthesis, and these are then used by the polyp for its own needs. If nitrogen was made readily available to the zooxanthellae (for example, if high levels were present in the water and the dissolved nitrogen “diffused” into the coral tissue), it could then be accessed by the algae without limitation by the polyp, and zooxanthellae could begin to grow and reproduce like a “phytoplankton culture.” In this case, the symbiosis becomes less advantageous to the coral, and it will expel some of the symbionts to try and re-establish maximal benefit from its algal partners."

just my 2cents
Anton

[Big E]

I wonder where that idea came from?


http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...5&pagenumber=3


Anyways......good luck, I'd like to know how it works out for you. I would have given it a try if I had the lightening problem. The chaeto will be a good barameter for you. When it starts growing I would think your nitrate levels could be where they may start to show some results in the corals.

Ever think of stopping the Zeo? You'll eliminate the lightening that way. Theres plenty of other ways to eliminate nutrients.
Plus the Zeo method may skew what your trying to accomplish.

[Big E]

This might help also........

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...readid=1032679


Randy disagreed with my starting point but I think is as valid as any. It's what the macro algae folks do. There's some interesting links I supplied in the thread I posted above.

You can buy stump remover(KNO3) cheaply at HD or Lowes.

[Obi-dad]

I started adding 2ppm KNO3 to my stonies tank 2 weeks ago. By the next morning the nitrates are zero again. The chaeto has now started growing rapidly again, and the colors are starting to get richer. My tank had no measurable nitrate, and phosphate was 0.03 according to a Hanna colorimeter. I was not using zeo, not barebottom, just was barely feeding the tank. The acros were all pastel, however they were growing fine. I will let you know how it goes. I have also started feeding the tank more, with the pappone recipe (Italian version of blender mush). I will let you know how it goes. The funny thing is that some people try for the pastel look - but I prefer the rich deep colors so I am trying to get away from the pastel look.

[prance1520]

KNO3 easily available in a common form? Where would you get this from?

[Horace]

Originally posted by antonsemrad
Chaeto is a very effective phosphate binder.

Corals have evolved to get thier nitrogen from organic sorces, (food) not inorganic (kno3).

I think that food would be a better nitrogen source than kn03.

Yes Chaeto is a good way to reduce both phosphate and nitrate, however the point is I dont want to add ANY phosphate to the tank that I dont have to. IMO you cant really get phosphate low enough. Nitrate is a whole different ball game. We can and often do knock nitrate down to unmeasurable levels. There is no doubt that food is probably a better source of nitrogen than nitrate, but with food comes phosphate/ammonia. If I can skip the ammonia/phosphate, and provide a small level of NO3, I feel this could help corals that suffer from nitrogen limitation w/out the fear of raising phosphates.

[Sudad]

Why you don't use amino-acids and/or oyster eggs???

This would be a quite better form of organic nutritions and you could let your NO3 and PO4 low.

I have no NO3 and very, very less PO4, but I feed my corals regulary with amino-acids, oyster eggs and phytoplankton (which boosts the zooplankton in my DSB).

You have to ask yourself wether you want to increase only the NO3-level so that you could better sleep or you want to feed your corals.

KNO3 has to be changed by the corals to ammonium and this is a very energy-loosing procedure for the most corals. So it's better you offer the ammonium directly in a form of amino-acids or ammoniumchlorid (NH4Cl).

But if you ask me, I think amino-acids and/or oyster eggs are more natural, better used by the corals and much more effective.

Try it out and you will see it's better then KNO3.

By the way, natural seawater has very very less NO3 and PO4 but is full of phyto and zooplankton, that contains amino-acids and omega-3-acids.

Sudad

[antonsemrad]

I feel this could help corals that suffer from nitrogen limitation w/out the fear of raising phosphates.

I would think that the cheato would suck up the nitrate faster than the corals. This would also happen with the P.

Isn't it possible that the zoox are phosphate limited to begin with? How is it possible that some tanks (not yours) have nitrate much higher than NSW, but corals with much lower zoox density than would be found in nature? Me thinks p limitation.

Anyway what your suggesting would prob be little risk I think.

I saw pics of your tank in another thread, LOL I don't know why you are not happy. Tank looks great IMO.

[Obi-dad]

Originally posted by Sudad
,,, So it's better you offer the ammonium directly in a form of amino-acids or ammoniumchlorid (NH4Cl). ...

Sudad

Are any reefers in Germany dosing ammonium chloride? How much do they dose per 100 liters?

[Horace]

I have used aminos....I actually just ran out. I do plan on getting more soon and dosing more than I was. Perhaps I should try that first. I was using the Zeo AAHC.

As for my colors, yes they are good on many things, however, I have the unique persective of seeing those corals in a different tank where they look even better. Most of the corals that really stand out (my montis) look awesome. But I have a few acros, especially my green acros that have lost alot of color. They are still growing, but they dont glow they way they did when I got them. Dont get me wrong, the tank is not looking like *** or anything, but I am wanting to tweak the colors just a bit more on some things. In general, I think all the colors would benefit from a bit more rich/deep coloration.

[Flint&Eric]

As mentioned earlier corals use organic, not inorganic nitrate or nitrogen. So if you're looking to solving that problem start back on AA's. For those of you who remember the old thread I also use creatine for organic nitogen with good results.

Not to be a broken record, but as Sudad said....If you're looking for absorbtion than look into ammonium it's absorbed by clams and corals along with AA's.


All this will do is add nitrate and potassium to your tank. better off using a "cleaner" potassium source, but give it a try and let us know how it goes.

eric

[MiddletonMark]

I would also look more to adding ammonium [while potentially dangerous] as a better form for the corals. From my reading this would be the form that they would be looking for their minimal N in [or as food].

Then again, this is potentially problematic ... but so is any nutrient addition I guess.

I'll try to dig up the reference [at home pc] to link - interesting study re: coral intake of nutrients.

[Horace]

Mark, can you lead me to some info on ammonium? I have never read anything about it and woudl be curious to know more, espeically about its dangers.

So would the concensus be that I should get back on the AAs at an increased dose? I suppose if I can dose a nitrogren source via aminos then I will also avoid the phosphate, while not raising the nitrates.

[Horace]

Originally posted by Horace
Mark, can you lead me to some info on ammonium? I have never read anything about it and woudl be curious to know more, espeically about its dangers.

So would the concensus be that I should get back on the AAs at an increased dose? I suppose if I can dose a nitrogren source via aminos then I will also avoid the phosphate, while not raising the nitrates.

Next question, what aminos are you guys using? As I mentioned I used the Zeo AAHC but that stuff is pretty expensive. I think I would like to try something else. Is the Salifert brand any good?

[Big E]

Horace, why don't you just do what you wanted to try? No one knows what's in these commercial AA's regardless of brand name.

I don't see how anyone can claim a coral is going to use more energy converting a nitrogen source than tying to digest an oyster egg. I doubt anyone knows.

[Flint&Eric]

i use my own aa/nitrogen supplement. Most of the zeo guys run the kz AA's so i'd stick with that.

With zeo i doubt you'll get much of a trate spike when dosing kno3, the bacs should eat up quickly leaving you with K for the corals. I say go for it and see what happens.

I believe mark is talking about a study i posted for him about bacterioplankton systems... ammonium, if overdosed can cause death. think ammonia.

eric

[antonsemrad]

From what I have read, nitrate is more easily taken up by algae than ammonium. On a natural reef nitrate just isn't there. If you added some, the algae would soak it up instantly. That is why the zoox live in the coral tissue in the first place, to get nitrogen.

Why do we keep thinking that we can do it better than mother
nature? Phosphate is needed. Every living cell contains them. How can the coral grow without it?


Why is it that the p that is in, say, oyster eggs, is for some reason 'out of balance'? That is exactly the type of stuff the corals are after. So now we think that feeding them somthing that has a different n/p ratio is for some reason, better?

I just find it all hard to swallow.

Ant

[Obi-dad]

Ant, what you say is true if your tank has a good balance of N to P. Some of us find that we don't have that balance, and that is why we are trying to improve the balance. Maybe hard to swallow for you, but that does not make it less true.

[antonsemrad]

I don't see how anyone can claim a coral is going to use more energy converting a nitrogen source than tying to digest an oyster egg. I doubt anyone knows.

[antonsemrad]

Originally posted by Obi-dad
Ant, what you say is true if your tank has a good balance of N to P. Some of us find that we don't have that balance, and that is why we are trying to improve the balance. Maybe hard to swallow for you, but that does not make it less true.

I have never made those claims.

And I agree adding extra n is a good way to reduce P. I have done it.

But, that is not what Horace is trying to do. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that he wanted a little more zoox density in his corals.
As far as I can tell, P04 is not an issue in his tank. No?

[PUGroyale]

Originally posted by Horace
Mark, can you lead me to some info on ammonium?

I've got some fantastic little devices for this...

I call them fish

[MiddletonMark]

I'm with you, Ant. It would seem to me that a balanced food source would have to contain P - and would there be a radical difference in proportion of N:P from salt-food-flesh vs. coral-flesh?

---
Flint/Eric ... I was thinking about this study [and ammonium]:

O. Hoegh-Guldberg, J. Williamson. 1999. Availability of two forms of dissolved nitrogen to the coral Pocillopora damicornis and its symbiotic zooxanthellae Mar Biol 133: 561-570.

Abstract

The relative contribution of dissolved nitrogen (ammonium and dissolved free amino acids DFAAs) to the nitrogen budget of the reef-building coral Pocillopora damicornis was assessed for colonies growing on control and ammonium-enriched reefs at One Tree Island (southern Great Barrier Reef) during the ENCORE (Enrichment of Nutrient on Coral Reef; 1993 to 1996) project. P. damicornis acquired ammonium at rates of between 5.1 and 91.8 nmol N cmm2 hm1 which were not affected by nutrient treatment except in the case of one morph. In this case, uptake rates decreased from 80.5 to 42.8 nmol cmm2 hm1 (P < 0.05) on exposure to elevated ammonium over 12 mo. The presence or absence of light during measurement did not influence the uptake of ammonium ions. Nitrogen budgets revealed that the uptake of ammonium from concentrations of 0.11 to 0.13 wM could completely satisfy the demand of growing P. damicornis for new nitrogen. P. damicornis also took up DFAAs at rates ranging from 4.9 to 9.8 nmol N cmm2 hm1. These rates were higher in the dark than in the light (9.0 vs 5.1 nmol mm2 hm1, P < 0.001). Uptake rates were highest for the amino acids serine, arginine and alanine, and lowest for tyrosine. DFAA concentrations within the ENCORE microatolls that received ammonium were undetectable, whereas they ranged up to 100 nM within the control microatolls. The contribution of DFAAs to the nitrogen budget of P. damicornis constituted only a small fraction of the nitrogen potentially contributed by ammonium under field conditions. Even at the highest field concentrations measured during this study, DFAAs could contribute only _11.3% of the nitrogen demand of P.zdamicornis. This contribution, however, may be an important source of nitrogen when other sources such as ammonium are scarce or during periods when high concentrations of DFAAs become sporadically available (e.g. cell breakage during fish-grazing).

---
An interesting study, which combined with Alina Szmant's [showing coral self-production of most AA's] leads me to be a bit skeptical about what AA's can provide that other food sources can't - or that aren't as accessible to bac/algae that would just remove it from the tank. [while some bac might be eaten by coral, that's gotta be a small % of the bac in-tank].

While AA's might be a useful addition in the absence of ammonium ... they can only contribut up to 11% of the nitrogen demand. IMO - that seems significant as AA's alone cannot completely satisfy [or even 25%!] of the N demands in corals.

Perhaps fish pee isn't over-rated after all

JMO

[nwrogers]

Originally posted by PUGroyale
I've got some fantastic little devices for this...

I call them fish

Same here