what causes mis barring on clownfishes...?

[flipteg]

i was just wondering what causes mis barring on clownfishes like the ocellaris and perculas... i am getting the impression that mis barring of stripes occur more on tank bred fishes... but last week, i bought this percula clownfish (as seen here http://www.pbase.com/image/53795960 he's the one on the top)... as you can see, the white stripe is kinda off but the other side is more or less normal... the store manager said that it is wild caught... in the same tank with him was 5 or 6 other perculas but they were all just normal looking perculas...

[Rurouni Kenshin]

I doubt that was wild caught, I always thought the misbars ocurred from diffrent water conditions.

[grimmjohn]

I always thought it was genetic, thus more in tank raised, cuase they are bred that way () : )

[flipteg]

so you're saying that this sort of mis marking can not happen in the natural environment...?

[grimmjohn]

Originally posted by flipteg
so you're saying that this sort of mis marking can not happen in the natural environment...?

I'm sure they can, but it's easier in an aquarium.
Albinos occur in the wild, but they are very commonly produced by breeders.

[Gwoardnog]

I always read that it was due to poor nutrition in the parent during the spawning as mis baring is supposed to be much more prevalent with clownfish with less than adequate food.

Just what I've read. I'm by no means a breeder (yet ).

[grimmjohn]

Originally posted by gordo663
I always read that it was due to poor nutrition in the parent during the spawning

So it is genetic then? () : )

[oama]

Originally posted by flipteg
so you're saying that this sort of mis marking can not happen in the natural environment...?

Hogwash! Of course it can occur in the natural environment. And it does occur!

Generally, when refering to clownfish, the term "Mis-barring" refers to the lack of bars or broken bars. I.E. "Missing" Bars.

What we have seen in recent months/years is not what I would term Mis-barred. B/C the bars are all there...with additional white in the barring from the "norm". A term has not really been coined yet, but I would lean towards something like "extra-barring".

To answer your other question, the cause seems to be both genetic and environment during the larval or early life stage. Some researchers are looking into this, both from the Misbarring and "extra-barring" stand point.

Clownfish develope the head bars first. Then the mid bar and then the tail bar. Even with a "pure" clownfish, an environmental effect can produce Misbarring. But, fish that are misbarred will tend to have a higher %age of misbarred ofspring. Though the %age varies depending on rearing conditions... or just plain dumb luck.

The extra barring seems to follows the same pattern.

In both cases, the parents never "Breed True". Far from it.

In either case, not enough is know at this point in time as to what is going on.

The extra barring seems to be a geneticly based prediposition to a burst of white pigmentation occuring during each phase of development. Though, generally, it seems to be centered around the mid-bar region.

[flipteg]

what do you mean by "Breed True"...?

[oama]

Originally posted by flipteg
what do you mean by "Breed True"...?

If you have a clown with a "?" on it midbar, not ever offspring will have this "?". The exact patterns will not repeat. And will most likely be some other pattern, if one shows up at all. It's not like blonde hair or blue eyes.

[ficklefins]

"Breed True"
A phenotype for a simply-inherited trait is said to breed true if two parents with that phenotype produce offspring of that same phenotype exclusively.

http://www.biochem.northwestern.edu/...reed_true.html

Or the ficklefins definition= Parents with perfect bars will produce offspring with perfect looking bars.

[flipteg]

this is just like genetics class all over again...

[oama]

Originally posted by flipteg
this is just like genetics class all over again...

Except that clownfish just laugh at Mendel's Square as an "Air Breather's Guess of how the world works".

[grimmjohn]

In my genetics class we spent a lot of our time seeing how hick we could say "punnett's square" () : )
Ahh good times () : )
Many things with a low g, or high g (I forget which way it goes, but I thinkg is the ratio of "environment" to "genetic") are like that.
Of course there are also lots of things like that do actually show 9:3:3:1 etc.. but the numbers are confounded for various reasons.

Cheers,

grimmjohn

[Fishboy42]

I would agree with what has been said. Just to add -- I have found it possible to "induce" misbars in fish from fully-barred parents through manipulation of water quality and food during the larval stage and through metamorphosis and doing it at the right time to affect the desired bar while it is forming, be it head, middle, or third stripe (in ocellaris anyway). I'm sure others have had the same experiences in seeing misbars. It at least gives a hint that it's not all genetic, as completely normal fish can be raised from the same parents.

-Matt

[JHardman]

Since Doug did not mention it, I will.

The primary reason you do not see as many mis-bar or extra-barred wild caught clownfish is simple math.

In a captive bred evironment there is a MUCH greater survival rate for the offspring approaching as much as 80%, while in the wild you are looking at survival rates below 1%.

[flipteg]

so what do you all think of my fish...? wild or captive bred...? or the chances for both are pretty much the same... when i got it, it was actually not in the best shape... the 5 or 6 other normal looking perculas in the same tank are pretty much in the same shape... i really like the "all black" look of this particular fish or else i wouldn't have gotten anything from the store otherwise... seems like the fish is really stressed in the store... as soon as i put it in my tank, the color was very pale for a couple of minutes... the fish came down with ich the first 2-3 days in the tank... it was ich on and off throught the day so i just decided to keep the fish as comfortable as possible and let it deal with it... it is fine now...

[ficklefins]

I don't know where you got him from but he's REAL nice.

[oama]

Originally posted by JHardman
Since Doug did not mention it, I will.

Um... What John said

Sometimes you repeat something so much that after awhile you forget to

[phender]

I'd say close to 100% yours is wild caught. Over barring is not very common compared to under barring in captive bred A. percula. Not many people are breeding percs with that much black. Those that do, usually sell them at a younger age.

[Atticus]

Originally posted by phender
I'd say close to 100% yours is wild caught. Over barring is not very common compared to under barring in captive bred A. percula. Not many people are breeding percs with that much black. Those that do, usually sell them at a younger age.

Phender hit the nail on the head. I would place yours at 100% WC. To find a captive bred fish like that you would have paid through the nose for it and had to search for it. It would not have been thrown out in wholesale stock.

[chlupl]

Which is a shame... I'd love to be able to get that fish, captive bred, and as easily as ocellaris's (I know I spelled it wrong--err think I did anyway). The true percs are real beauties and the mostly to all black are just gorgeous. If I breed clowns, I want either deep maroon gold band maroons (not the pale red-orange varieties so common) or black true perc's... know anyone with good breeding stock?

Steven

[JHardman]

Originally posted by chlupl
Which is a shame... I'd love to be able to get that fish, captive bred, and as easily as ocellaris's (I know I spelled it wrong--err think I did anyway). The true percs are real beauties and the mostly to all black are just gorgeous. If I breed clowns, I want either deep maroon gold band maroons (not the pale red-orange varieties so common) or black true perc's... know anyone with good breeding stock?

Steven

It is much less a matter of "good breeding stock" as it is a matter of time and money.

IME A. percula to not develop lots of black between their bars until they stop growing and if they start growing again they will lose the black that was there and only slowly regain it.

With A. ocellaris I can have a saleable batch in the 4 to 7 months range. If I had to hold A. percula until they were mostly black or had lots of black I would be holding then for periods greater than a year. Most breeders large and small simply can not afford to keep offspring around for that long.

[chlupl]

JHardman

Thanks for the info... I am fairly new to SW--about a year. I have a lot to learn, but am loving the process. I have recently begun coral propegation, and hope to eventually raise fry as well, but all in due time. I think it is a matter of both good stock and time and money. You are right that they will be bred and must be bred in a reasonable manner to the breeder. I did not realize the process of how the black developed and so assumed it was two varieties or morphs of the perc, but guess I was wrong. Thank you for letting me know.

Steven

[JHardman]

Originally posted by chlupl
JHardman

Thanks for the info... I am fairly new to SW--about a year. I have a lot to learn, but am loving the process. I have recently begun coral propegation, and hope to eventually raise fry as well, but all in due time. I think it is a matter of both good stock and time and money. You are right that they will be bred and must be bred in a reasonable manner to the breeder. I did not realize the process of how the black developed and so assumed it was two varieties or morphs of the perc, but guess I was wrong. Thank you for letting me know.

Steven

You are misunderstanding the point.

Yes there are variants of A. percula, onyx in specific that has a lot of black. It does tend to breed true.

The point is that there are not any hatcheries and not too many hobbiest breeders that are going to hold onyx fry long enough to produce the complete black, only enough to sell it as a onyx.