Possible Southdown alternative

[Michael_Wamsley]

I am resetting up one of my propagation systems after moving to my new home. The last time I had all of my tanks going at one time I used about 6500 lbs of sand. Most of this was Southdown (5000 lbs.), but since I love to experiment I did set some up with various other sands. The only other one I would use again would be the E.S.V. I absolutely love this sand and I believe it is probably the best there is for a dsb. However I need a lot of sand again (1500 lbs to start off this time for stage one) and $45 for a 50 lb bucket was just a little out of my price range.

Like I said the last time I did this Southdown was easily accessible and even though I live in Texas I had no problem getting it shipped here through Home Depot. This time around it has been an extreme headache and have gotten nowhere through all the channels I have perused. I even considered pulling an Anthony Calfo and getting an 18 wheeler to deliver a truck of unbagged sand to my back yard. I decided that my incredibly understanding wife would not be quite so understanding about this and backed off of this pursuit.

This is when I stumbled across an interesting possibility at my local Dallas/Ft. Worth area Home Depots. They have picked up a sand made by Pavestone / (and/or) Marble USA. It is NOT the silica/gypsum stuff. It is marketed as pulverized limestone. I took several pictures of the bags to show in detail what the labels say about size and composition. Please not the sieve is BEFORE pulverization.

This is my experience from the basic tests I have run so far.

Color: Mostly off white with less than 0.5% black specs.

Size (after painfully long sorting process):
These are just my grouping of sand sizes it is just from a single bag, so results may vary
X-Large 1-2mm 2%
Large 1-0.5 mm 3%
Md/L 0.5-0.2 mm 5%
Md 0.2-0.15mm 18%
Md/Sm 0.15-0.10mm 27%
Sm 0.10-0.05mm 32%
XSm less than .05 13%

Bag claims 95% calcium carbonate form with less than 2% magnesium. So I did the "vinegar" test, acid test, calcium test in saltwater, carbonate test in saltwater.

Red wine vinegar test: 1/2 tbs. sand and 2 tbs red wine vinegar. Fizzed and bubbled for over 14 hrs. In the end I decided this was long enough and took some visual notes and threw out the sample. The water was slightly murkier than when I did this with ESV (which fizzed for ~4.2 hr). Also none of the black specs (possibly magnesium?) dissolved.

Acid test: Slight effervesces (possible calcite?) and faster reaction with similar results (few if any black specs dissolved)

Calcium and carbonate test with saltwater: Before sand was added calcium tested ~410 and carbonates ~2.7mEq/l. Sand added very cloudy. I waited 2 hrs for most to settle without circulation. Calcium test over 600 and carbonates ~3.5mEq/l. Tested the next morning (28 hrs later) with all sand settled and calcium was at ~450 and carbonates at ~2.9mEq/l.

I checked up on this sand and found permits for mining in South Carolina for registered lime products. They appear to get it from the same general area as Yard right. I did some further investigating and found this it is dolomite is considered by the state as "high calcium limestone" (CaCO3). Dolomite is one of those minerals that there is still much debate about how it formed but the most descriptive definition I could find on high calcium dolomite limestone was the following: “High calcium limestone is produced from ancient shallow water marine sediments that are almost totally made up of fossil skeletons. "

I am fairly satisfied and am going to start to see how live animals react to this (the ultimate test). I am starting with micro inverts and algae and will work toward corals and fish over the next 6 months. I will keep you posted on how this goes.

Michael Wamsley

Pictures should be posted below.

[Michael_Wamsley]

Sorry I am having trouble with the pics. I will have these up by tonight.

[Snakebyt]

I am VERY interested in seeing pics of this stuff. I am in Lubbock Tx, about 5 hours from you. If my local HD dosent carry it, i am sure that it wouldnt be a problem to get it. If you can get the pics to work, contact me or email them to me and i will post them for you from my webspace.

[Michael_Wamsley]

Thr regional Home Depot distributor has picked up a very diverse line of Pavestone products now and has no intention of dropping them soon. I am sure it will no problem to get them to special order it if they do not already have it.

I still cannot upload my photos directly, but I have them on my gallery page.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showg...at=500&thumb=1

Let me know if the pictures are okay.

[masterswimmer]

Micheal, your link works fine. Very interesting results. I'll be following your beta testing. Hope it's successful, both for your critters and the rest of us reefers!

Good job & good luck.
Thanks for keeping us in the loop,
Russ

[Michael_Wamsley]

I will definitely keep you updated. So far so good. The side view picture is with the sand mostly stratified from the sorting process. It was still dry. The "course" looking sand on the top is deceiving. It was the size where most of the black particles fell into. It is actually still fairly small at 0.2-0.15mm.

I would also be interested in keeping in contact with anyone else that may use this sand in the future to collaborate with and compare/share results.

-Michael

[masterswimmer]

I'm in the process of setting up a new nano. I want only a SSB, but this sand seems like a viable alternative to our former SD.

I'll let you know if my HD carries it and if I go the beta test route myself.

Russ

[Saltz Creep]

Put some in saltwater in the same proportion as you would water to sand in a tank, then test it for phosphates. Some limestones are high and some are low in PO4.

[revclyburn]

I will be waiting for your results with extreme anxiety. As I too have been looking at alternatives to our beloved Southdown. I found this sand during a search for sand on the internet.

Anybody ever heard of this, or tried it.



Rev

[Snakebyt]

thanks for the pics.. ill be heading to HD tommorow

[revclyburn]

If anyone can find this stuff and tries it, plz LMK your results.

Rev

[Snakebyt]

I checked my local HD, and they have like a pallet and a half of it. I picked up a bag to check it out

[Michael_Wamsley]

I am concerned with the phosphates as well, but I was in the middle of this experiment when I posted my initial results last time. I should have been more clear on this. I set up small-scale systems to see how less complex / more durable animals would react. First I used these to check PO4 on small sized tanks, as I did not want to do this test in a small container. I now have the data from those (PO4) tests.

Sorry it has taken me so long to update, but as a teacher my time is VERY limited during the school year and I have even less during the actual school week. I am fortunate enough to have a spectrometer on my campus that we got through a grant. It can test all sorts of water quality parameters. I put it to the test with PO4 readings and compared these to my Tropic marine test kit. Here is the information and parameters on the machine.

TEST________RANGE_____RESOLUTION____ACCURACY
Phosphate__0.0-1.0 mg/l___.01 mg/l____±.05 mg/l ±5%

I tested 3 different samples a variety of 2 ways.

Sample one (control sample). No sand was added to the saltwater. All saltwater already pre-mixed with SeaChem salt for 4 days prior to test (regular water change water).

Sample two (Pavestone brand). Wanted to test in extreme sand use situations. 5 gallons of sand to 5 gallons of water (1 : 1). Half of volume in sand and let sit for 18 hrs.

Sample three (Marble brand). Same as #2 except I noticed sand particle size seemed to be slightly smaller as a cup weighed 4 ounces more than the Pavestone did per cup. Wanted to test in extreme sand use situations. 5 gallons of sand to 5 gallons of water (1 : 1). Half of volume in sand and let sit for 18 hrs.

For sample two and three I set up four different 10-gallon systems to run two types of tests. (four tests total)

Test One : let it sit for 18 hours in a 10-gallon tank with heater, microjet, and air bubbler.

Test Two : let it sit for 18 hours in a 10-gallon tank with heater, microjet, and ran CO2 to lower Ph to see if PO4 leached out.

Sample one (control)
PO4 --> .08 mg

Sample two (Pavestone) Test one (Ph 8.0)
PO4 --> .05 mg (lowered?)

Sample two (Pavestone) Test two (Ph 7.4)
PO4 --> .06 mg

Sample three (Marble) Test one (Ph 8.2)
PO4 --> .04 mg (lowered again?)

Sample three (Marble) Test two (Ph 7.5)
PO4 --> .07 mg

Remember there is a margin of ±.05 mg, but we keep the calibration of this as up to date and accurate as possible.

My tropic marine test is no fun to use and comparing color is like pulling bristle worm chaetae/setae out one at a time with your tongue. I did the tests anyway and all came back clear. According to this test kit the phosphates were zero on all tests.

This is the last chemical test I plan on doing, unless you guys can think of one that might be benificial, would like to see, and not too expensive/time consuming. I still have the PO4 tanks set up for now. Now comes the slow and patient part.

I want to clarify a few things. I am in no way advocating that this sand be used. I am simply trying to fine a good alternative for my problem and share my experiences with the reefkeeping community that is having the same difficulties in finding inexpensive sand.

I also want it understood that this test was done with a very small random sample of sand from one single batch. Due to mining processes it needs to be addressed that my results of this sample are not large enough to make blanket generalizations about the quality of the sand as a whole. This is why I am eager to share results with others who may endeavor to explore this sand as an alternative to current sands being used.

Thank you for your understanding, feedback, and patience.

I hope to update you soon,

-Michael

[Saltz Creep]

It is very possible that the sands you tested did lower the PO4. Calcium carbonate will bind PO4 thus removing it from the water column (per Randy). It does this initially but the binding is rather loose and in time it can be released back. As far as PO4 goes, the Pavestone seems no worse than aragonite.

[Michael_Wamsley]

I am still not 100% convinced with the phosphate test and I am going to retest later this week as the water sits longer. I need to let it sit for a little while longer before I start to put basic animals in anyway. I was most puzzled by the readings dropping after I added the sand. I was also expecting slight levels (.5-1.0) in the water column.

That being said, I am least concerned with the phosphates and nitrates as far as water quality is concerned. What I am most cautious about is heavy metals. As there is no inexpensive and RELIABLE precise tests for copper and other heavy metals, I will be relying on the animals to give me clues about levels. I have done the test kit copper and readings came out zero, but I do not trust the accuracy of these, nor does this tell me anything about bonded levels of Cu in the sand and other metals present in the water.

I will let you know how this goes.

[Michael_Wamsley]

Saltz Creep

I really appreciate the input on this matter. I was curious about something.

I did the test with the low Ph for this very reason, to see if this would dissolve the calcium carbonate similar to a Ca-Reactor. Keeping the bond from occurring by the fewer possible hydrogen ions available in the water column and possiblly breaking the stronger and very old bonds with the calcium carbonates. (Arch Oral Biol. 1961 Aug;4:122-33. Experiments with calcium carbonate phosphates). If I remember correctly he started with lower Ph liquids, carbonated water, sugars, and various other corrosives; and went from there with sodium fluoride to test the value of it as a protective barrier to keep this bond intact (which it was able to with everything except low Ph liquids-they continued to break away the calcium carbonate).

The low Ph tests is where I was expecting to see a large jump in PO4 levels, but it was still lower than the control sample. Anyway I will test again.

Thanks again,
Michael

[Saltz Creep]

No problem. Keep us posted with your further testing.

[rnoreef]

Not to intrude on your thread, but I did a Google search on pavestone pulverized limestone and a search came up for "List of South Carolina Registered Lime Products" which lists your pavestone as dolomitic and if you look right above, it lists old castle stone products "yardright" as dolomitic. Wouldn't that mean that is might possibly be the same composition as the infomous southdown. I've been searching for anything here in Nevada to put in my 300 gal. that i'm in the process of setting up now.

[Michael_Wamsley]

rnoreef

There is absolutely no intrusion. I want as many people as possible to question and be informed about the possibilities here.

Good observation note. Yes these are both from dolomitic sources. The problem is there are currently 4 identified/recognized types of dolomatic deposits and even though they are coming from the same state they may be very different. There are various debates on how this "rock" formed and the augment swings back and forth in the scientific community. This is why I am going into so much detail. I do hope we have found a substitute, but only time will tell.

I was encouraged to find out that the Pavestone/Marble was classified as dolomite that was a "high calcium limestone".

I hope that by these tests we can find a good alternative to Southdown for those of us having trouble finding it. We should know one way or another.

Thank you for your input, and please post if you (or anyone) decides to test this sand out as well. Just be careful, as results have not been widespread or time tested yet like Southdown. Maybe we can build a bank of data here.

[revclyburn]

Are there any test I person without a spectrometer can run. I know that we usually have relied on the ole vinegar fizz test to confirm things. But, outside of that, what other test can I possibly run on the sand I found?

Rev

[Chicago]

i have some bags left over in my garrage. very similar. free for the taking. sps frags welcme if you have some. i used this fine stuff that was similar to the southdown. it use to be advertised here as i think pure caribean something. like i said i have a couple of bags for the taking. i am not using fine sand anymore as my pumps are to strong and tend to blow it around the tank.

[revclyburn]

Hey

can you tell me what brand it is?

Rev

[GraviT]

Michael_Wamsley, I also live in the DFW area (NW Dallas to be exact). Would you mind sharing where you found the pulverized limestone? I checked the Home Depot near my office (75252) and they had never heard of the stuff. I would be interested in performing some testing as well.

Thanks!

[Snakebyt]

I found it in Lubbock, it was in the gardening section, like out in the greenhouse

[GraviT]

Thanks Snakebyt, I'll keep that in mind if I get frustrated enough to drive to Lubbock!