A rock 'cooking' question.

SeanT · #1 07/18/2004, 11:47 PM

Through Bombers tutelage I cooked a bunch of rock successfully.

And currently I am battling, warring, fighting, (and losing soundly) the biggest battle I have ever had in-tank: Hair Algae.

I am at my wits end and have tried everything I know of and have heard of but I can not yet contain it.
I fear that this menace is killing my soul in regards to the hobby.
Thoughts of giving up and getting out have started to creep in.

One of the benefits to being a huge butt head, like me, is jackassed like stubborness.

Once my next-to-last gasp efforts fail, I am hoping I have one final option, cooking.

My thoughts are to remove every last mother lovin' piece of rock from my tank.
Cook it for a few months and put it back.
Now, I know virtually all life will die except for bacteria pretty much but I don't care.
The only life on it are pods, coralline, Asterina stars, sponges, and the multitudes of worms, and of course Bryopsis
I guess I will miss the sponges and pods. The pods and worms can be repopulated easily but the sponges will be gone.
I have coraline all over the glass so I know it will return eventually.

My hopes are that by cooking all my rock, that all hair algae will be gone and that all the organics deep inside the rock will be pulled out thru bacterial turgor (Like I didn't have to look that term up

) .
Is it reasonable to expect this with a large amount of rock (300+ lbs.) in one container or should it be broken up into many?
Should this work?
And with all my live rock being absent from the tank for so long, what additional filtration methods are recommended?
I plan on building PVC racks to hold all my corals while the rock is cooking.

Thank you,
Sean

Randy Holmes-Farley · #2 07/19/2004, 05:57 AM

To be honest, it sounds like an unlikely plan to me.

How hot do you plan to heat it?

IMO, the rock will stink, a ton of dried organics will be left behind, along with inorganic nutrients, waiting to fuel another burst of algae when in new salt water.

Mr_Quality · #3 07/19/2004, 06:14 AM

Cooking your rock sounds a bit crazy. I agree w/ Randy - you'll end up with more "fertilizer" than you started with.

If you are really looking to try something extreme, move all your rock to a tank or tub that has excellent circulation. A skimmer would be good too if you have a spare. Sequester this tank/tub as best you can from all light, and let it be for about a month or so. Your photosynthetic life should die off, leaving the rest behind.

I've never actually done this and I'm only guessing that a month is the right time, but this should work. I think this crazyassed idea is far better than cooking your rock.

Habib · #4 07/19/2004, 06:15 AM

I'm not sure I would feel comfortable cooking live rock because many organisms contain substances which can be toxic and might pollute the air if they can escape together with the steam.

MiddletonMark · #5 07/19/2004, 06:28 AM

Uh, I'm pretty sure Sean here is not actually going to be putting rock in the oven.

Mr. Quality suggested what I think Sean means, using a term `cooking' from Jerel. What he means by `cooking' I'm thinking means to put it in a container with lots of circulation, good skimming, regular water changes and kept dark for a period of months so that the bacterial action will help the rocks shed debris. Pretty much what Mr_Quality said above:

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr_Quality
If you are really looking to try something extreme, move all your rock to a tank or tub that has excellent circulation. A skimmer would be good too if you have a spare. Sequester this tank/tub as best you can from all light, and let it be for about a month or so. Your photosynthetic life should die off, leaving the rest behind.

Essentially `cooking' the rock in bacteria, in process helping it rid itself of excessive detritus.

Sean - that sound about right for what you're doing?

Habib · #6 07/19/2004, 06:52 AM

Ahhh Jerel. Yes he does everything with bacteria so perhaps also cooking.

MiddletonMark · #7 07/19/2004, 06:58 AM

Haven't you ever had his famous cornbread?
What do you think the secret ingredient is?

Habib · #8 07/19/2004, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MiddletonMark
Haven't you ever had his famous cornbread?
What do you think the secret ingredient is?

Let me guess bacteria and then kept in the dark for months so that the fungi can kill the bacteria?

SeanT · #9 07/19/2004, 12:05 PM

ROFLMBO!!!
I am sorry, I thought, since Bomber is in the Chemistry Forum a lot, you all had heard the term 'cooking rocks'

I by no means want to put rock in the oven.

Quote:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bomber wrote
Back to square one.

You have to establish the different layers of bacteria in order to accomplish what you're trying to do.

You have to have the anaerobic (no o2) area and bacteria in the middle to eat the organics that will be found there chemically bound to the calcium carbonate.

You have to have the aerobic (has O2) area and bacteria on top of that to consume the left overs that the anaerobic bacteria produce and continue to move it to the surface of the rock.

Get you a big enough tub to hold all the rock. Put a power head in it to keep it aerated and let it sit until it's cleaned up in the dark. Dunk and swish it every now and then to remove detritus that would just break down and continue the cycle, and move them into new clean water and start again.

What you killed in the rock will release nutrients again. You're going to need the bacteria to move it out of the rock for you. By cleaning the tub and water they are in, you're forcing them to use more and more of the food in the rock - thus cleaning the rocks better and better.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SeanT · #10 07/19/2004, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr_Quality
If you are really looking to try something extreme, move all your rock to a tank or tub that has excellent circulation. A skimmer would be good too if you have a spare. Sequester this tank/tub as best you can from all light, and let it be for about a month or so. Your photosynthetic life should die off, leaving the rest behind.

I've never actually done this and I'm only guessing that a month is the right time, but this should work. I think this crazyassed idea is far better than cooking your rock.

LOL That is cooking rock.

Randy Holmes-Farley · #11 07/19/2004, 03:34 PM

We'll have to have a chat with Bomber to use some decent lingo.

I think that sounds like an OK plan, and one big container should be OK.

And with all my live rock being absent from the tank for so long, what additional filtration methods are recommended?

What remains in the tank? Fish? Live sand?

SeanT · #12 07/19/2004, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
What remains in the tank? Fish? Live sand?

Just fish, inverts and corals.
My tank is bare bottomed.

Randy Holmes-Farley · #13 07/19/2004, 04:29 PM

You might not have much in the way of a biological filter emaining. I would suggest initiating one before removing the rock. Maybe spread a thin (1/2" ) layer of sand on the bottom a couple of weeks before removing the rock.

Boomer · #14 07/19/2004, 04:52 PM

We'll have to have a chat with Bomber to use some decent lingo.

I would guess so, as cooking rock, in my world, is LOI it. Maybe I should go all the way with this in rocks/geology. Loss-On-Ignition (LOI), is the amount of volatile matter driven off when the mineral/rock is heated to 1000C.

Bomber · #15 07/19/2004, 07:49 PM

Hello!

anyone want a cornbread recipe?

SeanT · #16 07/19/2004, 08:02 PM

Hey Bomber,
Do you think my plan has a chance at working?
Thanks,
Sean

Bomber · #17 07/19/2004, 08:09 PM

Don't want the cornbread recipe, huh?

I don't see why you would lose the pods and worms and sponges, we don't. Unless you're going to put it back out in the yard again.

As far as the other things in the tank when you remove the live rock, has every one forgotten the principle that wet drys work on? All you need is a place for bacteria, and not many of them BTW. Can you add a couple of sponges to the sump? Even just some air driven cheap sponge filters will do it.
Set up something like that and let it run for a week first. Then I would remove 1/2 the rock, wait a couple of days and remove the rest.

G-money · #18 07/19/2004, 08:19 PM

I cooked mine for 2 months after Spanks came to me in a dream... .

About a month after the recuring (as I llike to call it

), I have so many mysiids and pods...it's like the rock is brand new. Perhaps all that "cooking" opened up some space for them - or gave them something to eat? Dunno. Sponge growth, while reduced, is taking off again, I have as many fanworms as ever. I don't regret it one bit. The coralline started to die back a bit after about 6 weeks, but it's coming back strong as ever.

FWIW, for 2 months, I kept my corals (about 15 lbs of them), 3 small fish and a bunch of snails and crabs in a 2/3-filled 75 gallon tank with about 15 lbs of live rock and a heavy duty skimmer. Everything went amazingly well (until I restocked the tank, but that's a story this bonehead won't go into at the moment).

Anyway, I am seriously thinking of having 2 "sets" of rock and replacing half the rock about every 2 or 3 years, recuring the removed rock and repeat. Regardless of what "some" say, I find it hard to believe it ever goes "bad" as long as you maintain it...in fact, most of this recured rock is nearly 5 years old - and pretty darn clean. Time will tell...

SeanT · #19 07/19/2004, 09:23 PM

Well, I use my garage and unfortunately it isn't on the houses AC.
So at times the temperature gets into the high 90's.
I am not going to even ask the Lady of the House if I can do it in the living room where the tank is.
She would capitulate but I know it would sadden her seeing all that mess and I love her...soI will wait for a "big" favor to do that.

I am unfamiliar with 'air driven sponge filters'.
My current filtration on the tank is asf ollows:
A 125 gallon refugium with a DSB full of Chaetomorpha and live rock (which, Ironically, has no hair algae on it).
A MyReef MR-3 Dual Beckett Skimmer powered by an Iwaki.
An old Emperor filter used for Carbon only.
An Aquamedic Phosphate filter used with Carbon only as it is useless for Phosphate media.
A Magnum 250 filter used for whatever media I need to put into it.
A MyReef FMC Phosphate reactor with a blend of Phosban, Rowaphos and Tunzes' Silphos.
And a bi-weekly-changed filter sock system on my drains.

I am hoping that all of those, plus weekly 25% water changes, will get me thru 2-3 months of cooking school.
Any other filtration I should add?
And regardless of the answer to that question, do you think it would be best to take half the rock out at a time anyway?

Randy Holmes-Farley · #20 07/20/2004, 06:13 AM

Loss-On-Ignition (LOI), is the amount of volatile matter driven off when the mineral/rock is heated to 1000C.

Bear in mind that you'd do a lot worse than lose organics at that temp. You'll end up with a bucket of quicklime.

Just curious, in this wet cooking procedure, where does all of the phosphorus end up?

Bomber · #21 07/20/2004, 07:41 AM

in bacterial detritus that you hopefully remove

( I need more coffee )

Bomber · #22 07/20/2004, 08:47 AM

Forget it, ever have one of those days where coffee is just not working?

Remember the "metal eating bacteria" thread? There was a ton of stuff I was trying to point out in that thread. Phosphorous compounds are limiting for those bacteria, they grab all they can.

Randy Holmes-Farley · #23 07/20/2004, 09:02 AM

Yes, so the bacteria get up to the volume of solids that represent all of the organics from the live rock. Sounds like a horror movie. Remember "The Blob" ?

Boomer · #24 07/20/2004, 09:08 AM

Bear in mind that you'd do a lot worse than lose organics at that temp. You'll end up with a bucket of quicklime

Yes, that is true with caclite. However, LOI is common parameter in rock or mineal assays. For example Wollastonite ( CaSiO3) has a ignition loss ranging from 0.5% to 2.0%. With some rocks or minerals you have to go even higher thant 1000C.

Loss-on-ignition can be attributed primarily to the decomposition of carbonates (mainly calcite) however, such things as water of hydration, organic materials (roots, wood, plants, etc.) and sulphur-containing minerals may also contribute in part . LOI is important in ceramics also, as gas evolution affects the quality of glazes .

Here is the procedure

http://www.xrf.ethz.ch/xrf_instr_LOI.html

Bomber · #25 07/20/2004, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley
Yes, so the bacteria get up to the volume of solids that represent all of the organics from the live rock. Sounds like a horror movie. Remember "The Blob" ?

and they push themselves out taking that organic soup with them.

Problem with a sand bed is that they have nothing to push on but the bottom and sides and organics are constantly being replaced (food). Result is, the sand bed fills up.

Remember, I drove Frank and Jai crazy with just one word - bacteria.