Lifecycle of red bugs?

[RyanH]

Eric,

I have the acro red bugs on some of my corals. I am thinking about moving all my acropora to a single tank and treating that tank with Interceptor.

My question relates to how long I should keep acropora out of my other tanks to allow the red bugs to complete their life cycles with no host and eventually die out. Would this strategy work for clearing my other tanks of the red bugs?

Do you suspect that I could keep other corals (montipora sp?, pocillipora sp?, zoanthids?) in the tank, or are the red bugs not that host specific?

Thank you for your help.

Ryan

[MCsaxmaster]

I don't believe anyone is aware of the life cycle of these things yet. I have also heard that there look to be more than one form. That certainly complicates things. Treating the affected colonies as you have proposed may work--or it may not. There may be an intermediate form during the life cycle of these critters which may well stay in the tank. Not to step on Eric's toes, but I don't believe anyone has any idea at this point.

Cheers,

-Chris

[EricHugo]

Actually, I am getting there. The broodpouch on the bugs would suggest, though not prove, direct development. Also, copepods often have very complex life cycles with long larval durations. The sprread of these things in tanks would indicate that they are direct developers, although that is my next step in working with them and is in progress.

I have also found they will last about 3-4 days without Acropora before they die. I had two actually make it five days, but they were reduced to minor twitching for the last day and I do not think they would be capable of surviving at that point.

I also found Interceptor to be only moderately effective, and I think treating a tank full of other crustaceans and worms with an anti-helmith is a bad idea. To put them all in a separate tank would solve that problem, but if you are going to that trouble, you'll be done quicker and better using Lugol's. I had very good success with a magnifying glass, 5 ml Lugol's per liter of water, and a 2-5 minute dip. They are excellent swimmers, and they will jump off a colony quickly if disturbed, so be careful when moving colonies. I also find them very tenacious on the skeleton, and hard to physically remove if they want to stay put. You may still see a few after the Lugol's dip, but I am quite sure they are dead - use the magnifying glass to confirm that.

In terms of alternate hosts, I placed 10 bugs in a small Petri dish with tiny fragments of five other species - Pocillopora, Seriatopora, two species on Montipora, and Pavona. The bugs never reacted to the other corals, even when they repeatedly buped into them. Instead,they kept swimming to the surface, pushing against the sides of the dish. Even after my trying to submerge them so they would interact repeatedly with the other genera, nothing. After three days, their activity slowed, and they were largely weakened to the poitn where they were trapped by surface tension of water at the surface. At day four, they were all dead. So it appears they are specific to Acropora only.

[MCsaxmaster]

Very interesting Eric, keep us posted

Cheers,

-Chris

[RyanH]

Wow! Thanks for the information. This seems to turn alot of the information i have read on its ear. Since my red bugs are primarily in my frag tank, the thought of a Lugol's dip is much more palatable.

Regarding the Interceptor, why do you think people have had such apparent success using it.

Thank very much for the information. Incredibly helpful.

Ryan

[EricHugo]

We used two heartworm medicines - Interceptor and HeartGuard- took a long time to kill bugs, and even after 24 hours, some were still alive. Like I said, this is ok in a QT tank if you have the time and dollars to spare and can procure the drug. To be fair, the corals tolerate the meds well, but it is defintely not an approved use of the drug, and treating the tank will, if it is effective against these crustaceans, be effective against all the other things you don''t want to kill - not the least of which would be the biomass pollution resulting from mass bug, bacteria, and worm kill of a well populated tank.

Ordinary 10 drop/liter Lugol's is basically worthless, too, but we used 5-10ml liter for times from 30 seconds to 10 minutes. At five to ten minutes, the 5ml dosage stressed the corals, and they had some bleaching. The 10ml dosage was worse. But, at less than 5 minutes for the 5ml dosage, and 2-3 minutes for the 10ml dosage, all corals tolerated it fine, no bleaching, and 100% kill of bugs. The vast majority had died and turned black, falling to the bottom, within seconds. I pipetted a few bugs off the coral and put them directly into a dish with that strength Lugol's under a dissecting scope and they went catatonic almost instantly and were dead within 30 seconds. I am not sure what allows those remaining few to survive for up to a few minutes, but some do. None survive beyond it. We were able to reduce that time to 1-2 minutes at 5ml dosage if a pipette was used to dislodge any stragglers that failed to jump off the coral or die outright in that time period. Like I said, a magnifying glass will confirm that they are clear. Of course, those corals have to be put into a QT tank for the period during which the bugs remain alive in the tank without a host because some do jump off when you move a coral in the tank - and they swim very well and frequently swim stright back towards other Acropora - amazing to watch.

If it turns out they have a complex life cycle or actually do have other potential hosts, then we're in trouble. But, so far so good and no reappearance after treating around 100 or more Acropora of many species.

[AlgaeMan]

Eric,
Is there any way to treat an entire system with Lugols instead if dipping each coral to kill the bugs?

[MiddletonMark]

AM ... I think the problem would be doing a 5 minute `dip' of the whole tank.
[when dipping, after 5 minutes you remove to Iodine-drip-free water. Unless you can do a 100% water change in a minute or so ... IMO it will be a problem [as the iodine dip would last very long]

Also, I'd think the Iodine will mess with most bacteria in your tank ... not really something recommended system-wide IMO.

Just my take ... but an interesting question indeed!

[AlgaeMan]

Thanks Mark. Looks like I'll have to use Interceptor to get rid of those things.

[MiddletonMark]

If this is one treatment [Interceptor is multiple] then I'd be darn tempted to remove all Acropora from the system for a week and treat and house them in a tank setup for the purpose. If that's what turns out to work with others ... IMO is the best bet. Scares me to kill a lot of good life in my tank just for one problematic little beast.

I'd love to work in a `QT' or hospital process like we do with fish. Not sure if this could be made to work ... and might not be possible for you with a 215 ... but seems least traumatic to the system. [lose all copepods for one variety? doesn't sit well with me ... then again, I've been wrong often enough]

[EricHugo]

Algae man - no way to do that. You have to realize that these are not red bug specific. Not only what Mark said is true, but I hate to tell you what all you would kill with the whole tank in that strength Lugol's The water is yellow-brown at this dose level, and you'd probably need about a quart of Lugol's to get a tank to that cocentration!!

[Aged Salt]

Excellent thread Eric, et al,thnx. for the information,Bob

[Carrera07]

I have a few sps that are attached to some medium sized pieces of live rock. Can I dip the live rock in Lugol's at the recommended dosage along with the SPS? Or would it kill off the live rock?

Thanks.

[AlgaeMan]

Eric,
The lugols solution for the entire tank was just a question. I'm assuming that you couldn't get a strong enough dose to kill the bugs without killing everything else. There is a thread about using the heartworm medication "Interceptor" for dogs. This has been used in numerous tanks with good results. Ofcourse the side affects are losses of hermit, acro, and other crabs as well as shrimp and a good part of the pods. I haven't decided to use this yet, but I may need to if the red bugs jeopardize the health of my acros. The link on the Interceptor treatment is here:

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=324266

[Dustin]

Eric, which interceptor did you try and how much of it did you use? Your resuts seem to differ greatly from the people who have used this medication. Judging by the page views and the number of emails and PMs I have gotten, hundreds of people have treated with this medication. No one who treated properly has reported the bugs returning and more importantly there have been no reports of tank crashes.

[EricHugo]

Hi Dustin:

I didn't report the bugs returning either. Just that it takes a long time and even after 24 hours, some were still alive. I followed your reefs.org directions exactly with Interceptor a few weeks ago on twelve test corals. We used ivermectin a week earlier with an estimated dose based on your Intercpetor thread. The other thing I don't like is the solubility issue with milbemycin which you mention in that thread - it is poorly soluble in water, even with heating, as is the ivermectin. I was thinking DMSO might be a solution but haven't bothered to investigate. I haven't heard of any tank crashes, either, but I cannot imagine the loss of other affected species being a good thing, you know?

If one is to treat their tanks with a drug that is unapproved for this use, and whose effects on all the other organisms is not known, its sort of irresponsible. I feel the same way about the use of antibiotics with marine invertebrates. Just because the corals and fish live, or the tank doesn;t completely crash, doesn't really give a thumbs up to the effects on smaller fauna or what might be unexpected side effects, all of which are usually tested prior to a drug being approved for use on an animal, and by veterinarians.

When a coral is sick, I have occasionally suggested the use of various treatments on the sick animals, and in a quarantine tank. I only suggest antibiotics when there is good reason to suspect that bacteria are a causative agent in the condition, and even then with proper drug disposal and with quarantine. To use an antiprotozoal/antihelminth in tanks where a large portion of the total benthic life are protists and crustaceans and worms (plus antimicrobial effects), not know what other effects are, etc. just doesn't make good sense or good practice. It is as if we are saying. "I like the corals, and I paid for the corals, so I need to save the corals no matter what the other cost." OK, if this is the case, then the aquarist should also be willing to treat the corals by removing them to appropriate treatment conditions unless another treatment option exists with known effects. And, if corals are removed from a tank, then Lugol's seems faster, easier, and more effective.

You mention aquarists "treating properly." What is "proper treatment?" Your own thread has loads of appropriate warnings. These are quite right.

There is no "proper treatment" using an unapproved drug on unapproved subjects on a presumed parasite that is undescribed and probably unknown to science on corals for which no medical treatment has ever been designed for any purpose using a treatment plan wholly unstudied, after uncontrolled experiments and trials, and by people unlicensed and untrained in veterinary medicine. That's pretty much the case, isn't it?

I applaud efforts to determine effective solutions to aquarium issues. I'm just not sure this is one of them.

[Dustin]

Eric, as I have have stated before lugols is not a viable treatment option _when an entire tank is infected_. Its too hard on the corals, and our results have shown that it does not work. Even after 6-8 baths they still returned.

I understand that using this medication in an aquarium is an off label use. I never claimed to be a vet and I did what I could to make it clear that his was a risky treatment. However it has turned out to be quite safe, there have been no reports of problems.

The drug works, instead of bashing it, it seems like your expertise and resources would be a better service to hobbyists working out the lifecycle of the bugs and/or figuring out if there actually are any side effects from using interceptor.

[davejnz]

Originally posted by Dustin

The drug works, instead of bashing it, it seems like your expertise and resources would be a better service to hobbyists working out the lifecycle of the bugs and/or figuring out if there actually are any side effects from using interceptor.

I believe he already is doing that and I think he already answered your question

"not the least of which would be the biomass pollution resulting from mass bug, bacteria, and worm kill of a well populated tank"

[Dustin]

There is no worm kill, or any biomass pollution. Even in an exceptionally diverse tank.

[AlgaeMan]

Maybe some people who actually used Interceptor should chime in..... I have read only positive feedback on using Interceptor. Atleast someone finally came up with a solution to the problem after all of these years. Even prescription drugs on the market have side affects. Dustin, I'm sure there will be many people that bash your solution before trying it.

[Reefsavers]

I agree with what Eric says.Surely, treating a fully developed ecosystem with a drug that obviously kills other animals outside of what it is intended for most likely will affect several things that you cant even see.. Dustin,I dont think anyone is bashing your treatment but its not the only way.Eric and I did try several methods and the Iodine is by far the most effective and safe treatment so far.Even in a large healthy system with rich coral growth you could target affected corals, break free,and dip.These bugs only like the taste of certain acropora and do not seem to me to target all types. Another thing about the reoccurance of the bugs after several attempts with iodine probably was not strong enough to kill any of them.We have dipped hundreds of acroprora heads with iodine now two times and the bugs are gone.The acropora slimes the bugs off right after introduction.I do two dips.After the first one any straglers in close association or in close swimming distance will reappear in reduced numbers. These were ones you did not see hiding nearby.The coral that taste right are like magnets to these little guys.The beauty of the dip is that it is quick,cheap and does no harm to the main aquarium FOR SURE.Dustins method is still to be determined on how it affects diversity and stability.I think common sense solves this problem. Think about what Interceptor targets....hmmm.....heartworms.....yet it kill these guys too...hmmm.....interesting.Kudos to all that try.

[SeanT]

Originally posted by Reefsavers
Even in a large healthy system with rich coral growth you could target affected corals, break free,and dip.

This statement is waaaay off base in may situations.
To type it is easy, to do it is impractical and can even border on the impossible.
I have corals who have encrusted signiicant area on 30 lb rocks.
Many, many which have.
Do I just dip a 30 lb rock or snap the coral off, dip it, put it back in just to be reinfected?
Of course not.
I know it is not the "job" of anyone to find the answer to this conundrum.
And Lugol's dip seem to be a great thing for incoming corals.
But is not the answer, not even close, for those with large systems.
Heck, just the number of tanks required to dip the infected corals simultaneously would take up more room than I have lol.

I am still on the fence about using Interceptor, however, due to the lack of any, any, other serious alternative, I believe I am slipping into Dog Medicine mode.

BTW, Reefsavers,
[welcome]

[Dustin]

I have never said that the interceptor treatment is the only way. I have said repetedly that iodine is effective in killing the bugs when a bath is performed. I am going to repeat myself again. . In my experience iodine baths are not effective when an entire tank requires it. The chances of getting every piece of potentially infested coral dipped are quite low, especially in an older system where you have large encrusted areas. I treated over and over again for 3 months and the bugs returned. Those months of treatment were FAR more damaging to the system than the interceptor treatment was. The repeted baths killed all of the commensal crabs, shrimp and gobies within the coral heads. We lost hundreds of fragments from the stress of being dipped so often.

Then we figured out the interceptor treatment. We treated an entire 5000 gallon system that has been setup for over 5 years. We didnt loose a single coral, clam or fish. There was no massive worm die off, no cloudy water, no discernable bacterial bloom. You cant tell by looking at the system during the treatment that there was a pesticide in the system. The amphipods and copepods returned to their normal numbers within a month or two. This system was treated at a higher dosage than I suggested a total of 8 times. Today you would never be able to tell.

There is no denying that there will be some organisms in the aquarium that are getting killed that we cant see. I could only catch so many different types of worms and things to test. The results that you guys got in the lab are not inline with what myself and numerous other hobbyists have achieved. Before you discount this medication as too dangerous too use, look at how many times it has been used successfully. If you are so adamant that its incredibly dangerous, why dont you start testing it on the animals you say that it will kill.

I would love to see a couple of people try the iodine treatment on tanks that are heavily infested. There is certainly room for more than one way to do things.

[invincible569]

I dont understand how you guys can say that lugols will treat an established tank. I dont think its practical to tear apart corals that have encrusted. I dont think anyone (unless you have a farm) owns 2 big enough tanks to take ALL infected corals out to eliminate the bugs all at once. And thats not even a guarantee as the existing tank will have bugs waiting 5 days on you on some rock or other coral. Dustin may not have the science to back up his findings, but he does have MANY other people with established tanks who can vouche for him on the success of Interceptor.

[mrkrispy]

wow I noticed a red bug infestation on a few of my acros, but most are frags or recently moved. I think pulling them off the rocks and putting them in a QT tank for a few weeks will be much better than treating the tank with Interceptor. Only a 20L, not a lot of acros. Woohoo I hope it works...