Marine planted tank photo's, FINALLY:)

[Plantbrain]

http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/...3668&members=1

James P. can kiss my hairy behind I don't care if people do not think Marine tanks should be considered plant tanks or not. I think it's pretty clear that is a plant tank, there's no Coral, hydroids, sponges etc in this tank, it's either macro algae of seagrasses etc. I'm still taking photo's and tweaking this tank.

Main thing is to get the experience and be able to reproduce this type of aquascape using marine plants.
I'll tell you, this was not easy, but it can be done and I may find some ways/methods to make this easier as I progress.

This part of the hobby genre is in it's infancy

The methods and approaches to that of FW planted tanks are distinctly different.
Getting algae to attach in a certain place is not as simple as replanting/pruning!

I also needed more light than I had thought to have good dense growth.
This tank gets fed a little and KNO3, iron, Mg, Kalk(for Ca and alkalinity) weekly.

I only hope that this tank will get better and better. Marine tanks tend to be less pruning, hassles, water changes but care is needed and patience. Generally after a year or more they settle in nicely.

I am certain to get a chiller later, this tank cannot go about 78F or so, the algae are temp sensitive, I figured this out quickly, some species are quite temp tolerant, most are not.

I plan on adding some shrimps, bloods and clowns. The damsel might be replaced with something else less vicious.

A general approach is picking the actors(the critters and fish) and the aquascape is the stage on which they live.

I have not gotten to that level with this tank yet.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[GDW]

Greetings Plantbrain !

A new style-wave is indeed about to break upon the shores of marine aquaria world. If anyone has any doubts about how "way cool" it is going to be, I suggest they take a look at the analogous freshwater work of Takashi Amano.

Given the surprising lack of useful data , I too have been experimenting in the land of propagation and (ornamental)utilization of macroalgae.

What follows is a series of posts showing some of the aspects of what I've been tinkering with. Any comments or questions you (or others) might have would be very appreciated.

This attachment is of the system I've been working with ( ... the infuriating absence of hard, replicable data regarding macroalgae propagation required some "real world" experiementation throughout the last 11 months).

The "real object" of my efforts will be established sometime in early March, 2004. It will be a 260 gallon (84" X 24" X 30") dedicated macroalgae system.

[GDW]

After experimenting with the Gracilaria for awhile, I started working with densely packed groups of various other species.

Temperature control is clearly going to be a major in the successful replication of dedicated macroalgae systems.

[Dag]

Can these be mixed with the traditional reef setup?

[GDW]

While I still have significant concerns regarding the longterm effects of the exudates of various species, it has not been a problem so far.

I another of your posts, you mention the significance of circulation. I could not agree more. The need for surge and turbulent water movement for many upper zonal species has received meaningful antedotal (IMO) documentation in hobbyist literature. It will be interesting to discover the role of laminar flow for species from deeper zones.

[GDW]

Greetings Dag !

That's the $24 question, isn't it? There is good antedotal hobbyist information suggesting that macroalgae exudates have a detrimental effect on coral growth and propagation.

Calfo has some interesting things to say about this question (in terms of propagation) in his Book of Coral Propagation, Volume I. Reef Invertebrates (An Essential Guide to Selection, Care and Compatibility) by Calfo & Fenner also raises some interesting issues. These are both excellent books and I highly recommend them.

I currently think (with only superficial data) that it's going to come down to three questions: (1) At what "density" of macroalgae does coral health begin to be affected; (2) What filtration technologies can be applied to mitigate negative effects; (3) Is the effort and expense worth the benefits?

At this point, I have no definitive idea.

I'm currently experiementing with Maiden' Hair, Gracilaria and other species in an 80 gallon reef. Here's an attachment of section of the tank. After 4 months of operation, the corals are propagating wildly, and could seem ( ... but my data is only observational ... no hard chemical analysis, yet) to care less.

[GDW]

Another angle of the same stuff ...

[GDW]

Close up of the same stuff .... last one of these.

[GDW]

Here's another specimen from another system. I think its some Dictyola species, but I have yet to key it out properly.

BTW, can anyone recommend a good marine algae classification text?

[GDW]

Propagating Ulva species is not going to be a problem. The problem will be controlling growth.

[Plantbrain]

While I am concerned with plant health, I am equally concerned about design and placement.

Most Marine tanks are nothing but zoos, a collection of different species and little in the way of a design/artistic expression as a whole.

This is where we will see the examples coming into their own.

I keep FW planted tanks at a high level as well, I'll post some tanks I've done in the past on the site.

But I feel that having a large amount of plants is a good thing, why use the plants as Refugium?

They look good on their own.
Amano would not use plants as a filter only.........


Mermaid's wine glass is an indicator of poor conditions here. I grow something in the same family, Cymopolia which ios nicer IMO/IME.

I would like a nice bed of Acetabularia and all, but I have had trouble getting good density like I find seasonally.

BTW, anyone wants to collect these algae, come on down this June for the Plant fest, both FW and SW, 3 days each.

I've been good at growing FW plants and fairly good at these but want to work on these SW plants more.

I've been able to reproduce set ups but want to see about the longer term trends and best nutrient routines.

Give the macro's what they want, don't worry about the rest.

But I'll get this down hopefully like the FW plant tanks.


Regards,
Tom Barr

[GDW]

One of the things that I am most interested in is the creation of anartificial macroalgae mesocosm.

To do that, I need to discover the procedures for introducing and balancing diverse populations of bacteria, microflora, microfauna, and zooplankton.

The establishment of such populations should not prove to be too difficult. It's reaching some critical level of diversity that is going to be to issue.

Here's a mediocre picture (sorry ...) of the zooplankton population that arose in the test refugium system.

Polychaetes, amphipods, and flatworms ... oh my.

[Plantbrain]

Oh, I have all those too
It helps some in remineralization but the uptake exceeds the rate of remineralization of waste in these systems.

You need to add external sources, hopefully non NH4/Urea based, NO3 is good for nutrients in order to sustain good long term growth in SMALL SYSTEM.

A small refugium on a large reef tank is able to grow well since the nutrient pool is large from the main tank. So these two tanks are balanced if coral and macro's are happy.

The uptake rates of macros are much faster and exceed the possible inputs in my system so I need to add a few things rather than exporting them chemically/use skimmers etc.
I would rather have macro's as export personally.

I fluff the tank frequently to remove detrial matter settlement and filter with a micron cartiage.

Deep sand beds(DBS's) help.

I am not looking for a self sustaining system here I do not touch or like that is some goal, I do not mind doing some work trimming, dosing a few nutrients.
But I am also not wanting to do too much work on it either.

But I like a nice looking tank and am willing to work at it. That's more my goal than simple culture alone.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[rspar]

What would be the best/easiest macro to grow in a main tank? I'm looking for something to grow up as a background in my 24" cube tank. It's a predominately softie tank and I like the seaweed look.

[kmk2307]

Plantbrain,
I think your tank looks awesome. Please contine to post more pictures as the alage grow.

GDW,
The systems you posted pictures of are very interesting. Could you post some more pictures of the whole system that you grew the multiple species of algae in?

Thanks!
Kevin

[Plantbrain]

The tank has evolved through several phases.

I did not like the old design as much and the Laurencia got going pretty good, PITA but it's nothing like some of the FW algae plagues which I am known to solve well.

So my tolerances for algae removal are likely higher than Reef folks. I am quick about it, no dilly dallying.

But I hope to have many folks come down over June to collect and try their own tank's out by then.

I've had many of these algae since last Mar, a few are recent or recently found buried in a back corner.
I thought I lost Cymolpoia, I did lose Champia but know a friend in academics that is growing it very well in Conn.

Hopefully, I'll have a good solid reproducable system down by then(June). I'm close, but I also know I can crash this tank if I gets it too warm, not enough Alk/Ca, slack on KNO3 and traces, lots of current, light etc

I have not figured out a few things and I am leary about that. I've done 100's of Planted tanks over the years, this is my first Marine planted tank so it's understandable.

But by June I hope to be able to tell folks that come down how to go about this in more detail.

Many FW plant people are a bit upset by me wanting to consider this a planted tank but it certainly involves Aquatic gardening which is my focus for the last few years.

I really like these macro's a lot. Once you get a tank the way you want, you feel a bit better. I was honestly worried over the summer(the heat got all the nice growth) but I will certainly add a small Electrothermic chiller this spring summer. Some macro's are very tolerant, but many are not.

I have only one Penecillus plant, more eclectic Caulerpa's and not that many, lots of soft hairy reds, calcerous reds, 4 Browns, hopefully I'll find some Turbinaria to replace the Sargassum with.

I had Hypnea doing well but it died back.
There have been other appearences/dissappearnces of various species.

I have not had any luck with Mermaid's wine glass for example over the long term.

"Fluffing" the plants every few days keeps them clean.
There are other tricks one can learn from FW planted keeping.

Most LFS's also have decent Reef tanks since chain's do not have a clue, so selling off odd ball algae is good for both.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[kmk2307]

Hi Tom,

Is this thing in June through your reef club?

Thanks,
Kevin

[ADHybrid]

Perhaps I missed it, but could you guys post the specs. of your tank? (lighting, temp, flow, ppm of supliments, etc). I'm attempting an 18 gallon marine planted and would just like to see where other people are running thier systems. Thanks.


-Chris

[Plantbrain]

No reef club, I'm not in a reef club.
I do this out of the interest spawned by the plants here and folks asking about it. I am more known in FW plant circles and di a plant fest last year and that was very popular and this time I'm adding a marine plant fest a day afterward the FW plant field trip is done.

So if folks want both, they can do it on the same week.
I'm just one person here, so I limit the group to 10-12people which is much easier to manage and get everybody out on the reef etc on time.

We share most cost etc and I have found the cheapest best deals for folks and take them to the good "locals" only places.

Several folks from public aquariums came down for the FW fest. The marine fest I have done as a formal course for perhaps 30 people so far.

Tanks spec's:

165w PC, 5000K 2x 8800K
25 gallon tall
Magnum HOT(Micron cartiage)
200GPH powerhead
250gph Skilter with skimmer off.

Local sand from beach, plants all from Florida Keys.
DBS about 2-4 cm in the front and 15 cm in the rear.

Lots of
Ca
KNO3
Trace metals

I'm hoping that food alone will supply enough PO4

I am trying very hard to keep the relative biomass even, so I can predict uptake better.

I do 70% water changes onjce twice a month depending on how bad I messed up my dosing estimations.

This is a high mainteance tank generally speaking, I would not have this set up in a 180 gallon tank for example, I would use different designs/plants etc but it can be done well at that level also.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[ADHybrid]

Where is the best place to find potassium nitrate? I mean, I figure from a garden store and I've been told to look for "Cooke's Stump Remover" but I have yet to find it. Is there another source I can find it at? Is there another brand/type I can look for? Thanks.


-Chris

[wwxc]

Isn't potassium nitrate also known as saltpeter? Thats the stuff the army puts in their food to lower the libidos of their soldiers.

[ADHybrid]

Note to self: Never eat Army Rations

[Plantbrain]

www.litemanu.com sells
K2SO4
Traces(for iron) dirt cheap
KNO3
KH2PO4

CaCl2?
MgSO4(Epsom salt)

Seems reef folks have been paying an awful lot for things.

You can buy these in 50lb bags at local turf grass suppliers often or ag places for aboput 20-25$ a sack.

Need less? Litemanu has it.

Yes, if your other half is getting too frisky, or perhaps you are, I hear it works.
They fed it to dogs in the WWII to make them meaner.


Regards,
Tom barr

[rmendis]

Great thread, guys! I would be surprised if these tanks don't catch on soon.

GDW: That pic of the blue Dictyola looks amazing!

[ludwigia]

Great Tank Tom.

GWD has some great unique specimens there !!

An awesome classification text for Caribbean macros is:

Marine Plants of the Caribbean by Littler, Littler Bucher and Norris

If you want to spend some bucks, try these by the same authors:

http://offshoregraphics.biz/Crp/Car-Reef.htm


http://offshoregraphics.biz/Prp/Pac-Reef.htm