Bromide OK?

cham · #1 07/20/2007, 12:04 PM

I was doing some reading on DOW Chemicals website and they are saying

" Historically, Dow’s calcium chloride
has typically contained less than
100 parts per million (ppm) of
bromide. However, due to process
changes, calcium chloride
manufactured by Dow in 2007
and beyond is expected to contain
between 6000 and 8500 ppm
bromide."

Is this substance ok? They go on to say

" Also, bromide is a natural
component of seawater and other
"natural" water sources"

Anyone familiar with this chemical?

Percula9 · #2 07/20/2007, 12:17 PM

Bromide will form a bromate ion and will accumulate to toxic levels. Use something else and the use of CACL causes the build up of Chloride ions in the tank. I read this was not godd over the long term. Kalkwasser will be better for dosing calcium. The use of Kalk must be followed as per instructions.

cham · #3 07/20/2007, 12:31 PM

I already use kalk, my system needs more than it can provide.

I wonder if this is what Dow was talking about when they made that statement a few months back about not being able to gurantee the quality of Dow flakes anymore?

Boomer · #4 07/20/2007, 01:24 PM

Cham

Bromide is a natural minor component of seawater @ 65 ppm. Bromide does not convert to bromate unless it goes through a double oxidation and you only get that with a strong oxidizer, such as ozone. @ 100 ppm is fine but now going to 6000 and 8500 ppm is way to excessive. 60-85 x the past amount.

Did they say "specifically" which one was going to be 6000-8500, such as Dow Flake. Dow is usually 77-80% Calcium Chloride or 770,000 - 800,000 ppm. That means the bromide will now make up .65 -.85 %. That does not sound like a lot but it is, especially when we do not know much about bromide. To bad when Randy did his ICP assay on Dow he never checked the Br levels. There is also no way "we" can measure bromide there is not rest kit.

Although bromide is no different than chloride, for the most part , it is quite different than chloride if one is using ozone. Bromide is 50,000 x more thermodynamically available than chloride, when it comes to oxidation, with zone and producing a bleach. It is the production of hypobromous acid and bromate produced by ozone for the reason behind treating all ozonated water with GAC.

I know of no studies on what or how elevated bromide levels would affect marine life.

The addition of any sup's other than kalk add unwanted ions. It is not just chlorides but Potassium, Sodium, Sulfate, etc. How great it would be if everyone could get by with just kalk or only a calcium reactor ( which also add unwanted ions but is much more limited than others like two-parts ).This is all discussed in our on-line magazine articles. In short, a 30 % WC /M will produce almost a flat graph where all ions are in balance to more normal NSW.

What you posted here Cham, with the bromide, is an addition to what they said before. Before, it is as others are doing to use in this hobby. These "salts" are not to be used in aquariums. In some recent talks, I had with Church & Dwight, they told me flat out, "do not use baking soda in an aquariums, it is not intended for that purpose". They, like others now, are just trying to cover their butts.

bertoni · #5 07/20/2007, 03:03 PM

I agree that chloride buildup is not an issue with a reasonable water change schedule, and bromate is not an issue given a good ozone setup, or no ozone. It'd be interesting to get some data on the bromide issue.

cham · #6 07/20/2007, 03:41 PM

Wow Boomer. You make me wish I didn't sleep through chemistry class in high school.

I am a true novice in reefing and even greener on the chemistry side. I do however like to investigate and research things.

If I understand you correctly, this is first off a very interesting turn of events and of a more immediate concern if you run Ozone (I do not) and even more of a concern if you are dosing Ozone heavliy?

Here is a link and the full article

Here is the web site
http://www.dow.com/calcium/index.htm

Here is the article that I quoted
http://www.dow.com/PublishedLiteratu...romPage=GetDoc

Here is a quote from the "ask an expert" center.

Quote:

No Dow calcium chloride products are certified per NSF/ANSI 60, Drinking Water Treatment Chemicals or NSF/ANSI 61, Drinking Water System Components.

I posted a question to the chemists asking if the "Hardness Plus" calcium chloride I got from Leslies that is 90-97% calcium chloride is the same as Peladow product.

You guys should get in the ask an expert center, your questions will be much better than mine.

These last two are notifications of the change that was slated to take effect at the end of 2006

http://www.dow.com/calcium/news/August_2005.pdf

But then was ammended to take effect at the end of 2007

http://www.dow.com/calcium/news/August_2005_add.pdf

So should we as aquarists start looking for a more pure source of calcium? What the heck are the Oceans Blend & other folks getting their hands on?

Percula9 · #7 07/20/2007, 08:25 PM

What I read did say not to use salt mixes high in bromide, because it reacts with Ozone to form hypobromite ion which then oxidizes to bromate ion at seawater PH. The levels that there advocating in there product is very high. I wouldn't take the chance better to find an alternative. I didn't mention the Ozone issue earlier because I had to leave for work and didn't have the time. Thought iit was best not to use it period. But thats your decision

cham · #8 07/21/2007, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Percula9
What I read did say not to use salt mixes high in bromide, because it reacts with Ozone to form hypobromite ion which then oxidizes to bromate ion at seawater PH. The levels that there advocating in there product is very high. I wouldn't take the chance better to find an alternative. I didn't mention the Ozone issue earlier because I had to leave for work and didn't have the time. Thought iit was best not to use it period. But thats your decision

I agree

But there has to be another producer of calcium chloride other thank Dow. Does anyone know of any other sources? Is there a test that can be done on Dow flake to see if it is indeed full of bromide?

cham · #9 07/21/2007, 07:29 AM

Does anyone have any info on this company? I am curious as to the % of calcium chloride & if it contains any Bromide like the Dow stuff.

http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/.../5650/cid/1620

I can't find anything about Proline on google.

Percula9 · #10 07/21/2007, 07:48 AM

THe product I found on your link was intented for use in Recirculating Aquaculture systems. If you want to use calcium chloride Kent makes a CACL liquid for aquarium use. The company on your link also carries marine products. They carry the Kent Calcium in the large bottles.

cham · #11 07/21/2007, 07:54 AM

BAH forget it.

I just ordered two gallon jug of it from Two Part Solution, it looks like they use Dow but its food grade. So I can't imagine thats going to have any Bromide in it.

Got a couple grand worth of livestock, why try to find a new solution for a calcium product that only costs $12 a gallon online.

Boomer · #12 07/21/2007, 01:53 PM

Cham

Yah, they state pretty clearly that the Dow Flake we use will be 7000 ppm Br and Food Grade, dry granular, WOW !, 8500 ppm. Only the Food Grade Liquid will be lower but still at 2900 ppm. However, all this is from Dec 2005, but as you noted amended to 2007. So the food grade is loaded with Br.

More than likely all the reef stuff is at these high bromide levels already, food Grade or not. And it is more than likely they all or most of them get it from DOW. So, for now all CaCl2 is suspect of very high Bromide levels..

That Drinking Water thing means nothing for us.

We may have to look somewhere else like Solvay Chemicals, Cargill or Tetra Chemicals .

This for example shows no Bromide but that does not mean anything IMHO. We would have to call them to really find out. They will be calling me on Monday.

http://www.tetrachemicals.com/getFil...ontent_ID=1185

I have also e-mailed Randy for his thoughts.

cham · #13 07/21/2007, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Boomer
Cham

Yah, they state pretty clearly that the Dow Flake we use will be 7000 ppm Br and Food Grade, dry granular, WOW !, 8500 ppm. Only the Food Grade Liquid will be lower but still at 2900 ppm. However, all this is from Dec 2005, but as you noted amended to 2007. So the food grade is loaded with Br.

More than likely all the reef stuff is at these high bromide levels already, food Grade or not. And it is more than likely they all or most of them get it from DOW. So, for now all CaCl2 is suspect of very high Bromide levels..

That Drinking Water thing means nothing for us.

We may have to look somewhere else like Solvay Chemicals, Cargill or Tetra Chemicals .

This for example shows no Bromide but that does not mean anything IMHO. We would have to call them to really find out. They will be calling me on Monday.

http://www.tetrachemicals.com/getFil...ontent_ID=1185

I have also e-mailed Randy for his thoughts.

Ahhhh man!

So most likely the Ca I just ordered from Two Part Solution is full of it too???

I don't need another bucket of Bromide laced Ca.

cham · #14 07/21/2007, 02:14 PM

I would be very interested to find out who our Reef suppliers are using such as Oceans Blend, Kent etc.

I agree with you, a pretty good chance they are using Dow.

Boomer · #15 07/21/2007, 02:15 PM

It may be.

I will call Julian Monday

He is a good friend of mine and I need to call him on another issue we are working on anyway.

Boomer · #16 07/21/2007, 11:46 PM

Cham I forgot that all salts on the market now are already seeing this being 3- 10 x NSW for Bromide, i.e., 210 -600

cham · #17 07/22/2007, 09:26 AM

Wow.

Apparently just about all the salt mfg's have bromide, although at lower levels. I kinda expected that. What levels of Bromide should we maintain?

I think I have a lead on a place that has a large amount of "prebromide" Dow products that was mfg sometime in 2006.

Will post up as soon as I can confirm this.

Boomer · #18 07/22/2007, 10:32 AM

There is no way of testing for it. One can test for Bromine but it is not Bromine in seawater but is as the ion Bromide (Br-), just like Chlorine vs Chloride. Apparently the above levies are safe but I wonder how high they wold get with the new DOW.

It is not that it is not toxic at high levels it is. In the 30s' and 40's the was Bromo-Seltzer, where most of it was removed from over the counter by the 70' due to the production of Bromism in humans. In the body the Bromide can substitute the Chloride ion, no good. It is used by and is rather high in marine plants and especially kelp. I can not find anything yet on marine organisms

Snarkys · #19 07/23/2007, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cham
Ahhhh man!

So most likely the Ca I just ordered from Two Part Solution is full of it too???

I don't need another bucket of Bromide laced Ca.

Another customer directed me to this post.

I just wanted to let you know that I checked the lot number and our food grade material was manufactured in June of 2006. The change for food grade material was made sometime in 2007.

I'm guessing most of the material readily available on the market right now is going to be from 2006 or older . Keep in mind that they need to manufacture it, move it to the back of storage as they sell the newer stuff , go through the distribution chain where they also push it to the back and sell newer stock and then be sold to you . I'm guessing after this winter it will be harder to find pre 2007 material but right now it should be pretty easy.

MO Will · #20 07/23/2007, 10:33 AM

Hi Snarkys

I bought Dow flake calcium chloride from TwoPartSolution about two months ago. Is it safe to assume that this is OK as well?

I can PM you my order number/lot number if that would be helpful

Thanks

Will

Boomer · #21 07/23/2007, 10:44 AM

The reason behind DOW's dumping the bromide is that DOW use to be a large manufacture of Bromide and Bromine products. DOW has no stopped the production of Bromide/Bromine. They use to get this by extracting it form their CaCl2, thus leaving "our" CaCl2 low in Br. Since they are no longer in the business , so to speak, making Bromide or Bromine, the CaCl2 will just have is normal very high levels. The purest CaCl2 are those that are made by treating limestone with HCl.

Snarkys · #22 07/23/2007, 10:57 AM

our flake was made in 2005 but they stopped making the 77-80 flake sometime in 2006 (possibly earlier). the new flake is 83-87% so it should be pretty easy for the average joe to know what they have.
http://www.dow.com/calcium/news/20060717d.htm

Last time i called our local supplier they had a few thousand bags of 77-80% in stock. So I'm guessing you will be able to find it for at least a while.

Snarkys · #23 07/23/2007, 11:02 AM

this is a pretty interesting article on calcium chloride . explains how a few of the companies make it (or at least used to)
http://www.omri.org/calcium_chloride_final.pdf

Boomer · #24 07/23/2007, 11:15 AM

I just got off the phone with the Tetra Chemicals chief chemist and by far the Limestone method is the purest CaCl2. Their data sheets also show that. Using the DOW in the future is not going to be good IMHO. The Solvay CaCl2 is risky, due to some may have and have been shown to have high ammonia.

cham · #25 07/23/2007, 02:51 PM

I've also been told by a very reliable source that after the "Prebromide" 2006 Dow runs out that they guys over at Twoparsolution.com already have "a suitable replacement from a different vendor , so when we run out of this product we will change over."

So it looks like they will be a good source of Ca now & in the future.