A warning about toxicity. A MUST read.

[hllywd]

It's unfortunate but this issue will not be put to bed. AGAIN, I'm not disputing that palytoxin will kill you, IF you find it, and IF you introduce it into your system, and IF the dose is right, and IF... My point is the only evidence is that somebody told somebody that told somebody that told somebody that some zoas killed a dog or made there buddy's wife's uncle sick. See the Urban Legend pattern here?

I personally believe the unfounded scare tactics and fear mongering being so freely waved about in this thread doesn't even belong to the lounge.

I guess common sense isn't so common in these parts, it's a shame a few posts have some people worried enough to wonder if the should keep a reef tank at all.

That said I'm unsubscribing from this thread.

Tim

[blackjacks_mom]

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=158663

read this post. It wasn't urban legend, and it isn't a joke.

It also wasn't a story to make you sell your tank. It was information for those who care to be informed.

[musicsmaker]

My point is the only evidence is that somebody told somebody that told somebody that told somebody that some zoas killed a dog or made there buddy's wife's uncle sick. See the Urban Legend pattern here?

I see the urban legend pattern there.

[ANIM4L]

I actually had a case of getting shot in the eye by a zoanthid (i was propgating outside of awuarium. after going to the hospital and spending a few nights there, i will tell you that they have some sort of toxin in them. i had washed my eye out immediatly and was not affected until the next morning. then i slowly started losing my vision. took two weeks to fully heal after shots, eyes drops, and fluids. i do beleive they are dangerous!

[musicsmaker]

Did they ever identify the irritant? Knowing more specific detail about your experience, namely your symptoms, would be cool. Best not to jump to conclusions about what, exactly, caused them. I didn't start this thread for fear mongering, but for knowledge.

I maintain that it is possible for palytoxin to exist in some of our tanks, but I think many of the scares talked about in this thread were brought upon by other factors. That, however, doesn't mean we should blow off the entire idea compleatly.

Equally in responce to hollywood. ~

[JDrex]

I am sure that getting sick is very possible I don't doubt that. There are certain kinds of fruit on trees that humans don't eat because it is toxic, but the thing you must keep in mind is that person expereice from our ancestors has taught us that. The point is that keeping corals is so new and there has been so little research done on their particular effects on peoples' health that we must treat these living organisms with the utmost respect until we know more.

[NanoCube-boy]

yup... i agree

[ANIM4L]

I had read somewhere that the toxin in the corals most sold to the public were not as toxic as the exotic ones in the wild (except those found at trade shows). This could make sense (the prettier the deadlier?).

My symptoms started that day, my eye just burned like fire a lot, but not all the time, just everyone once in a while, and i couldnt do anything about it. The next morning is where it started, my eye had turned 95% RED. about ten times worse than the "Clear Eyes" commercials! It hurt pretty bad too, but I dealt with it, and went to work. Throughout the day the pain just got worse and worse and I couldnt stand it, so i left work early. I went home, did some reasearch, found out about the toxin and freaked. Then i read it owuld kill you within minutes and now it had been a little over 24 hours. So i went to UMC Qucik care. I didnt expect them to do anything because these people are idiots. They examined my eye and told me I looked fine, jut some swollenness and redness. I had brought in papers from zoanthid.com and wiki about the corals and toxins and she called poison control. Poison control was afraid i would die and told me to immediatly go to the hospital. Since i wasnt dying i ignored it and decided that if it got worse i would go.

The next morning it begins...

I had woken up, but as scary as it may sound, I could only see out of one eye, and i didnt know why. My parents had come in to see if i was doing any better, saw my face, and said get dressed we are going to the hospital. My eye had been inflamed so much that it stuck out about the size of a tennis ball. We got to the hospital and after a lot of eye tests (and I HATE things touching my eye!) they told me that i had abrasions on my cornea, and severe inflamation (duh!). There was obviously something in this zoanthid that was causing an infection in my eye. Supposedly since i had washed my eye with water immediatly after contact, it saved my eye from any toxin, since the eye is a sponge for the bloodstream, but it got all around my eye. They sent me to an eye surgeon.

This guy did even more tests for my eye. He had founf out there wasa severe chemical burn on my cornea. Inflamation was out of control on my eye. He had called poison control, other doctors, and even doctors in Hawaii assuming they would have heard of this case. No one knew what to do, but the Hawaiin doctors claimed they have had people die from touching zoanthids with cuts on their hands, but no one has ever gotten it in the face.

He prescribed me eye drops for imflamation, irritation, lubrication, infection, and an all around healer eye drop. He also had given me a shot to stop any spread of infection and a shot to lower inflamation. Then I was given pills for all the above symptoms also.

As time went on it got harder to stand it, due to the pressure on my eye i had CONSTANT sinus headaches. My eye also teared constantly, trying to fight of any infection (plus my tears were bright yellow). I went home after that doctor visit to rest and take my meds. I hated resting because due to me tearing up all the time, even when i sleep, when i would wake up, the tears would have dried around my eyelashes and caused a seal on my eye, which was a pain to remove because it hurt to even touch my eye.

I eventually got the eye to be less swollen so i could open my eye about a 1/4 of an inch. Then came the worst and scariest problem. My eye was yellowish and I oculdnt see at all out of it. I immediatly went back tot he hospital and they didnt knwo what was causing it. They assumed the pressure from the imflamation, but they said that should be gone after 4 hours or so, and i had been there 6 hours with no improvement. They kept me there over night. They had constantly washed my eye out about 8 times, each time being 60cc of saline wash and used many medical eye drops to figure out what would work. By morning time (after struggling with the eyelash problem) I could barely see again. My eyes were Extremely blurry! I was still practicaly blind, not even able to make out shadows in the eye. the kept me again over night to make sure my eye wasnt slowly dying (I guess that was a possibility?). The next day I went startight to the opthamologist (eye surgeon) and he examined my eyes again, the stain had gotten bigger and still had no idea how to treat it.

to make time og faster, as the week went on, it slowly got better and better, by 5 days later i could see at 75% of what my eye used to be like. bye 6 days the inflamation was completely gone, but my eye was still reptty red and blurry and hurt, especially looking to the sides. went back to the doctor and he said the corneal stain was smaller, but still there. They washed out my eye again a few times, since there was a chance that the toxin would be slowly reaching my cornea casing me to go blind. He would dialate my eyes to check the back of my eye.

one week later i went back to the doctor and the stain was "gone" or hiding he said. My eye will just slowly get better and better. it is as of right now, barely pinkish yellow. He said it would be 2 weeks till it iswhite again.

Long term affects are that my eye is a little bit lazy, it doesnt open up as much as my good eye. This could be caused by damaged tissue or the swolleness stretching my skin too much, says the doctor. Also my vision in both eyes was PERFECT before, and my good eye still is, but my bad eye, i have to struggle to read the 20/20 line on the tests. i can get close sometimes, but then its just a guessing game. This is what happened to me. Will i still mess with corals and stuff, YES! i will definitely wear eye protection and gloves now, but i cant stop my hobby.

I am actaully an aquatics manager at a PetCo (i know flame me, but atleast i know what I am talking about and wont sell anything unless i know it will live and be happy!), and I used to be an aquatics manager at PetSmart (flame away?) for over two years. I have taken down my reef tank and turned it intoa FOWLR. But one day, i will start up a reef again!

[NanoCube-boy]

Thats freaking scary... I wear gloves when i work on my tank, but it's to clean the tanks glass without having my faceso closed to it. I'm scare of water splash into my face. I don't knwow aht to do about it, really. It would be stupid to wear a mask, but google would be fine.

[billsreef]

Originally posted by hllywd
I'll bet on busted...

I'll bet you loose that bet

Palytoxin is very well researched and documented in palythoa. To think that a bunch of zoo's that are wild collected do not have palytoxin just because they are sitting in an LFS or your tank is to ignore the scientific evidence.

On a more personel level, I've had my experiences with palytoxin also. Many years ago when the idea of fragging corals was still in it's infancy I decided to frag some zoo's that had been in my tank for quite some time. At that point in time I had the bit about them having toxin and that if you had cut's on your hand the toxin could enter that way and make you very ill or even dead. However, not having any cuts at the time I decided to frag my zoo's without wearing gloves. I made all of 6 cuttings and glued them nicely to some rock rubble. Within a few minutes of finishing up, my finger tips went numb, only the fingers that were in direct contact with the zoo cuttings. Soon after my lips got all tingly, and I'm thinking fugu at this point, and was followed by getting lightheaded. And all from making a mere 6 cuttings and no cuts on my hands. Symptoms only lasted a few hours, but I've never cut zoo's without gloves since then

ANIM4L,

Glad to hear you recovered

[NanoCube-boy]

Damn that's scary...

[CrazyLionfish]

I'm back. Those stories of having that toxin are terrible!!! I am glad both of you are doing fine.

I think hllywd is just trying to find some definite data to support the claim many have and I have to agree.

I in no way deny that the toxin does exist, I also in no way deny that it is present in certain zoas. I just wish someone had some data showing that "Bob had .002 nm of Palytoxin 54 in his left eye causing him to have these symptoms." Many (NOT ALL) stories on here say my hand was in the tank and then this happened, there is so many things in the water that could cause symptoms other then zoas. On the other hand there are stories where someone touches a zoa, then the symptoms occur, showing that it must have been the zoa that caused these symptoms.

Someone with high quality equipment go do an experiment, post the results up here, and everyone will be a 100% believer.

Also, Anim4l, I read your story, which is terrible! And I'm very glad you're ok. But you started out with "it all started out the next morning" in what manner did you come in contact with the poison or zoas? Squirt in your eye? Got it on your hands and itched you eye? or what?

[musicsmaker]

Originally posted by ANIM4L
I actually had a case of getting shot in the eye by a zoanthid (i was propgating outside of awuarium.

[Wolverine]

Originally posted by CrazyLionfish
Also, Anim4l, I read your story, which is terrible! And I'm very glad you're ok. But you started out with "it all started out the next morning" in what manner did you come in contact with the poison or zoas? Squirt in your eye? Got it on your hands and itched you eye? or what?

I was wondering about that too. If you read the effects of palythoa, they happen immediately on contact. I'm wondering if you didn't get something else in your eye that caused the problems the next day, or rubbed the mildly irritated eye while you were sleeping, creating the abrasion (which is not at all uncommon). Irrigation itself can create a corneal abrasion (which is much less of a problem than the damage the chemicals or bacteria can cause, so it's still recommended).

Also. as mentioned, the tankwater itself (which would be on and in the zoanthid) definitely carries with it loads of bacteria that can cause infections (there are around 100 oceanic bacteria that are known to be capable of causing infections in humans, and likely many times that number that aren't known).

Either of those explanations would fit better with the time course (or a combination of them).

I'm just going to assume this has been brought up somewhere on this thread, but just in case: Read Anthony Calfo's description of getting palythoa toxin on his face. The effects come on immediately, not the next day. I'm not sure why the Hawaiin doc thought no one has gotten this in the face, since there have been plenty of reports of that (though I haven't been able to find any of someone getting it in the eye).

Dave

[Wolverine]

Originally posted by hllywd
It's unfortunate but this issue will not be put to bed. AGAIN, I'm not disputing that palytoxin will kill you, IF you find it, and IF you introduce it into your system, and IF the dose is right, and IF... My point is the only evidence is that somebody told somebody that told somebody that told somebody that some zoas killed a dog or made there buddy's wife's uncle sick. See the Urban Legend pattern here?

I personally believe the unfounded scare tactics and fear mongering being so freely waved about in this thread doesn't even belong to the lounge.

I guess common sense isn't so common in these parts, it's a shame a few posts have some people worried enough to wonder if the should keep a reef tank at all.

Since you're unsubscribing, I guess you won't read this, but I'll post it anyway. I deal with zoanthids from a Pascal's wager type of approach. Yes, it's extraordinarly unlikely that I will get enough toxin from dealing with zoanthids to kill me. And if it happens, it would be difficult to prove without a doubt that it was truly the cause (though there are new detection methods that can detect very, very small amounts). Either way, I don't think it's going to happen.

However, if I'm wrong, the results are disastrous. Palytoxin does, without doubt from numerous reliable, scientific sources, have the potential to kill someone. Anyone who is going to try to deny that is not being reasonable.

It's not a tremendous burden to be careful when handling them (eye shield of some kind gloves, for example).

So, I use gloves and an eye protection (and the case can be made for doing this with anything in your tank), which are slightly annoying, but not a huge problem, to avoid the very unlikely, but potentially fatal consequences of getting palytoxin poisoning.

I would also say that this is far from the biggest potential danger from your tank, and there are other things that are much more likely to kill you.

Dave

[ANIM4L]

To answer your questions, I actually never thought about the tank water itself causing a problem. Because of the severity of the problems, i wont say it wasnt helped out by the dirty tank water, but i can say it was JUST aquarium water.

To also answer the other question, I did get squirt in the eye, not splashed or anything, squirted. immediatly after getting hit in the eye, i felt pain and pressure, only slight but enough to makeme not a happy camper.I had washed my eye out within 15 seconds of being squirt. The redness in my eye started the next morning (ill say 17 hours after initial contact with toxin). The next morning, 24 hours after the redness) is when it got really bad and went ot the hospital,

[FishGuttz]

This article connects Palyotoxin with ciguetera poisoning. It's interesting that all of the symptoms described on this thread could be from algae infected with ciguetera that happens to be living in aquarium water.
http://ioc.unesco.org/hab/HAN28_FinalComp.PDF

Maybe these test kit would detect palyotoxin, or maybe they would be willing to modify test kits or test our Zoas in their labs.


http://cigua.oceanit.com/index.php?o...tpage&Itemid=1

Lab testing

http://cigua.oceanit.com/index.php?o...d=36&Itemid=36

my 2¢

[andromedia226]

Let's breathe and look at just what palytoxin does.

1)It does NOT have to enter via cuts. It will seep through the dermis, into muscle tissue, up into the blood stream, and will quickly spread to the entire body because despite the molecule's gigantic size, it is able to move up to the heart. So all of you claiming "paly poisoning" from burning feelings with cuts, you're suffering something else.

2) The poison does NOT cause localized pain, because:

Our cells function by controlling chemical gradients of ions in and out of a cell, this creates an electrical potential. When paly is introduced to the cell membrane, it lodges into the small "gatekeeper" proteins that normally control the flow of ions in and out of the cell, and allows ALL ions that can fit through. This eliminates the electrical potential, in turn eliminating cell function ESPECIALLY in neurons, where electrical potential activates neurocommunicators which enact action potential along the nerves. PALY TOXIN WILL NOT CAUSE RASHES, REDNESS, PAIN, ITCHING, ETC!!! In fact, you will feel NOTHING in the area where it was introduced (hand, etc) because it won't allow your cells to tell your brain that something's wrong!

3) If you really have paly toxin, you'll experience a sweeping numbness that will take over your entire body from the area of introduction outwards until it reaches your diaphram. Then you'll stop breathing. Then it'll reach your heart, then you'll die. There is NOT a "halfway poisoning" with the tiny tiny fatal dosages we're talking about here.

3a) If you really think you have paly toxin, the BEST thing to do is call 911 and do NOT drive anywhere, you'll just die at the wheel and possibly hurt others. I really hate to be aggressive like this, but this IS the second most toxic marine substance (1st is a derivative of Crimson Tide bacteria's toxin). This is not like a snake bite where you can battle it by speeding to the ER.

4) Palytoxin is rare!!! BUT it's highly possible for them to circumvent the system via random people collecting them in hawaii, florida, etc and ebaying them or trading them. So yes, it's possible some lucky winners actually do have them.

5) The dog story is NOT a result of palytoxin. Repeat, NOT a result of palytoxin!!!

There are many, many toxins out there that create the same symptoms of paly because, hell, there are only so many things that can go wrong, and MOST toxins target the same areas of cellular function.

The dog took 12 hours to die. If he'd drank toxic paly water, he would either die very quickly or not at all. Paly is a one for one thing: for each cellular ion portal, you need one molecule of paly. Since the lethal dose is very very small, that means either you have enough paly to cause fast death or you don't. There is no "waiting around".
This is almost a digital poison, not analog.

If the dog had paly, he would be dead within very few minutes especially considering the small "volume" of dog. He also wouldn't be able to walk.


6) Situations where people's hands go numb, or they stagger after aquarium-tending are not examples of paly poisoning. Palytoxin is NOT just a paralizer, where you get paralyzed then recover to perfectly normal!

You cells DIE. They don't just go to sleep and then come back on line like a computer. Paly disrupts EVERYTHING in the cell, and you'll get vast necrosis due to both cell self-destruction, where cells implode because they sense there's something wrong with them (this is why cancer's bad: the cancer cells don't know they're flawed and so they don't self destruct when they should). So let's say you get SUPER lucky and get a NON fatal dose:

- Your hand goes numb, and then you may or may not lose it. While new blood will circulate in from the un-affected heart, the cells are in no condition to operate properly, and while the hand will stay warm with blood, muscular tissue, etc will have died.



Summary:
- Dog did not die of palytoxin.
- Palytoxin is actually very rare in aquaria.
- Such small LD50's (50% death ratios) make it MUCH more probable that you will die, and not just have a "brush with a numb death". Exposure pretty much guarantees death.
- There is no pain from the region of exposure, ie cuts.
-

IMO:
There are vast amounts of marine toxins/poisons in our tanks right now that cause the mild burning sensations, rashes, etc. There are hundreds of types of these toxins. Why must everyone who has a rash or numbness afterwards insist that it was one of the RAREST zoo poisons out there?

And how does a dog taking 12 hours to die represent in anyway the total paralysis and fast death that paly would cause?

So, despite the idea of having "the most toxin animal on earth" in our tanks being a "cool thing", let's take a breath (like I should do after this rant) and realize that we're all OK.

This is too much like the perfect boogeyman, and it's more in your HEADS than in your TANK.

[NanoCube-boy]

hmmm... very nice combat.

[birdfish]

Great post Andromedia! Agreed. How come everyone who hasn't read this isn't dead? And how come many many tens of thousands were imported and handled by thousands of workers for decades without a single mortality? Yes its "outhere", but there are much greater threats. Just don't eat 'em. Interesting that amongst the NON-menu items in the places we get corals from generally are fried green zooanthids. I myself don't eat anything the natives dont' eat. I have also bare handed handled 90+% of every species of zooanthids imported over 20+ years with open wounds and never had a thing happen, happen, happen.

birdfish

[NanoCube-boy]

I wonder that too birdfish. I see a lot of LFS workers handle these guys with out protection, such as gloves or wearing goggles when som people clam the squirt ok toxin that can get in open area. They don't get toxin... I don't get it, maybe getting sick by one will win a lotto to the ER i guess.

It is comletely hard to hand corals with gloves, it's very slippery and sometime can damage it.

[musicsmaker]

Andromedia226, your post seems very informative. Thanks for coming in here and sharing your knowledge. I have a question. What do you have to say to the term vasoconstrictor, and palytoxin being described as such?

[Icefire]

Geez, this thread is running for a 4th year...

I just emailed Professor Yo****o Kishi from Harvard who was the first to synthetize it.

Personnaly I think only the Dinoflagellate are making it and if some zoanthids have it in the wild, it's because of tide pool.
Some fish and crabs have been known to carry it as well because they ate so much Dinoflagellate.

Poisoning from eating clupeoid fishes such as sardines and herrings (Clupeidae) or anchovies (Engaulidae), termed clupeotoxism, is widespread in tropical and subtropical areas of the world but rare. A fatal case occurred in Kaua'i in 1978 from the consumption of the Marquesan Sardine (Sardinella marquesensis). This species has been replaced in abundance in the Hawaiian Islands by another import, the Goldspot Sardine (Herklotsichthys quadrimaculatus). Onuma et al. (1999) obtained the head of a specimen of this sardine that caused a fatality in Madagascar and found that it contained palytoxin. Because bottom sediment was detected on the gills and in the esophagus, they concluded that the fish is a bottom-feeder, and the benthic dinoflagellate Ostreopsis siamensis, known to produce palytoxin, the toxic organism. The sediment on the gills was more likely the result of the fish being dragged over the substratum by a seine. The Goldspot Sardine feeds on zooplankton, not benthic organisms. Therefore, a pelagic dinoflagellate is the probable producer of palytoxin.

Randall, John E. 1924- "Review of Clupeotoxism, an Often Fatal Illness from the Consumption of Clupeoid Fishes"
Pacific Science - Volume 59, Number 1, January 2005, pp. 73-77

[BiterAtmonk]

Originally posted by kmk2307
Could you please provide the source that you found this information in? Considering someone lost a pet, someone has to go to the hospital, and several people have reported "tripping" after comming into contact with certain palythoa, I don't believe this is correct.

Kevin

And yet that dog died 12 hours after ingestion; the quoted toxicity stuff above says that Palythoa toxin is lethal within 5 minutes. Sounds like the dog died from something besides palythoa toxica - perhaps just from all the other crap in the water.

Also, I don't buy any reports of "tripping" after touching palythoa. LSD is currently the most potent psychoactive molecule known, and that is active at higher levels than 4 micrograms (generally, acid tabs contain about 100 micrograms of LSD). It's preposterous to think that palythoa contain so little toxin as to cause burning hands after frequent handling, yet also contain a chemical ten or 15 times more potent than LSD (which is already orders of magnitude more potent than all other hallucinogens known).

[Coralmkr1]

Protopalythoa, and palythoa are regularly available in the aquarium trade. Lets not concentrate so much on toxicity, but more on secondary infections. If you have a cut on your skin, and regularly handle corals, live rock, come in contact with bristle worms, etc....there is a chance that you can get an infection. For the most part, these infections may only offer discomfort, redness, slight swelling, and may radiate heat. These types of dermal reactions to bacteria, toxins, usually go away in 24hrs.
Yesterday, while removing zooanthids, (blue caribbean, yellow zoo.s), from my Maxima clam's shell,,,I encountered an infection. I wore latex gloves, held the clam in my right hand, and began scraping the zoos from the ridges on the shell. I must have pricked my fingertips, with the brush. In the middle of the nite I was woken by trobbing of my right hand. (the hand is swollen, red, and I can barely bend my fingers) There are tiny pustules every where the brush pricked my figers. The cuts that I encountered, during a live rock restack, coral fragging, water change day of fun...lol, are infected as well. I went to the doctor this morning, (and ofcourse, I was pretty much teaching the doc about what a zooanthid, a coral, and so on, are. The doc placed me ona corticol steroid, and a broad spectrum antibiotic. I am not worried, I feel the soreness, and infection will subside in a day or so.
However, the fact is that we do not fully know how the insides of a zooanthid, palythoa, proto-palythoa, or other corals, will react with the human body. The important thing is to be careful, and take care, when you are fragging coral, trimming live rock, removing aptaisa's from a rock, mixing salt, handling various caustic reef chemicals. Wear safety glasses, latex gloves, etc. Take necessary precautions, and keep your hobby, a safe one.

As for the proof of the lethality of palythoa toxins, I feel more scientific research needs to be done. (As with any emerging field, there is a lot to be learned from our Oceans, and its inhabitants.