Mangrove Experiment - 50 Gallon tank

[RawFish]

Hi All,

I have been a FW aquarist for 5 years and Marine for 3 months. I know, I know... I'm a "freshman". However, I love aquariums and enjoy them so much that I read as much as I can so I can have a great and long lasting experience.

Since I started diving into the Marine Aquarium world I have encountered rich sources of information and many testimonies to support them. However, not much is consistent about Nitrate reduction and everyone seems to have succeeded with one method, yet not another. So far, I am impressed with scientific research on Mangroves in Aquaria. So I decided to give it a try and post the results here so everyone can profit from this experiment's output.

Abstract: I read that an average of 1 mangrove plant should be used for every 10 Gallons. I'll be using only 2 for a 50 Gallon tank so I can really put them to the test.

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Setup:
50 Gallon tank, setup 3 months ago. Cycled in 18 days using 2 raw shrimp and 2 bottles of Sera Nitrosomas/Nitrobacter. Once cycled added damsels and cleaning crew periodically.

Equipment:
JEBO Skimmer, Fluval 304 canister filter, Hang-on-back power filter, 2 Powerheads for a total of 845G/h flow, Heater, ODYSSEA 200W Daylight+Actinic. Aprox. 40 pounds of live rock. 2"-3" crushed-coral sandbed.

Water Chemistry History:
Tank Cycled in 18 days. Nitrates appeared at Month 1. By Month 2 Nitrate levels reached 20ppm; Reduced with water changes.
By Month 3, with 5 Gallons changed every 2 weeks:

Nitrates at 10ppm
Calcium at 440ppm
PH at 8.3
Nitrites 0
Ammonia 0
S. Grav. 1.025

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Mangrove addition (at month 3 of the system):
With Nitrates at 10ppm I added only 2 Mangroves to the system, placing them on the Skimmer Pump; placed a 13w daylight fluorescent light over them. Mangroves came with roots from the LFS. Only the roots and 2" of the stem are underwater. Also added a red seaweed plant.

Bio-Load at this point:

1 Yellow Tang
4 Small Damsels
3 Small Clownfish
1 Mandarin Dragonette
1 Hermit Crab
2 Red Crabs
2 Snails
1 Slug (came with a rock)

1 Orange Plate Coral (Fungia)

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WEEK 1 - With Mangroves
While feeding Normally Brine shrimp, Spirulina pellets and marine flakes:

Nitrates: 5ppm
Nitrites: 0
Ammonia: 0
PH: 8.3
Spec. Grav: 1.025
Calcium: 400ppm

Observations: A reduction in Nitrates is observed (50%), rather than the expected increase due to the bio-load. One of the red crabs died (maybe to much Strontium in Synthetic Salt used), which should have also increased the Nitrate production. Calcium has dropped (Orange Plate Coral addition?).

Conclusion: Nitrates were reduced considerably.
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[bertoni]

I am not convinced that mangroves grow rapidly enough to remove much nitrate from a system. There are a number of mechanisms that could explain your results.

[RawFish]

Hi bertoni, thank you for responding, I can see you are far more experienced and I appreciate your comments.

I read about what you mentioned. That's why I chose Mangroves with developed roots. What other mechanisms could explain my results? in the weeks preceding the mangrove addition Nitrate levels did nothing but increase.

Here is one study and it's 5 day Nitrate results: http://toptropicals.com/html/aqua/pl...ngrove_eng.htm

Cheers!

[bertoni]

The difference between 5 and 10 ppm might be within the error range of the test kit, and other parts of the mangrove refugium (particularly the mud or sand) might be processing nitrate. In addition, the live rock or sand (if any) in the display might be more effective. It's possible, though, that the mangroves consumed some nitrate, as well, although perhaps not at a sustainable rate.

[RawFish]

You may be right about the live rock and the inaccuracy of the test. However, I have no fuge nor mud, and on the main display the sandbed is crushed coral, of no more than 3". On the other hand, the roots are in full contact with the water column, which increases circulation and nutrient absorption.

I'll post new results this Saturday.

Once again, thanks for sharing, I do appreciate your comments.

[Capt_Cully]

do you have a pic of your mangrove set up? what exactly are they in/on? is there substrate or mud below them? what's the waterflow/turnover where they're located?

Cool post by the way.

[Zestay]

looks like someone spent alot of time at aquatraders.com
how do you like thier light strips?

[rcypert]

What is this red seaweed plant and how fast is it growing? To add seaweed to the mix also distorts the equation. The nitrates were not stable enough anyways. Then you toss in a water change? Its just not consistent enough to see if they help or not. What we need is a tank that has had 20 PPM nitrates for several months on several different or one really reliable test kit. Then no water or feeding changes and add in the mangroves only. Then test again after they have grown some.

[flapjack1439]

Why only 2 mangroves?

I have a 58 and a 10 gal fuge. I must have at least 15 in the fuge in different stages.

Maybe if you added more the results would be more dramatic and easier to track.

[RawFish]

Greetings, thanks for sharing. Please see answers below results.
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WEEK 2 - With Mangroves
While feeding Normally Brine shrimp, Spirulina pellets and marine flakes:

Nitrates: 5ppm
Nitrites: 0
Ammonia: 0
PH: 8.3
Spec. Grav: 1.026
Calcium: 340ppm

Observations: Nitrates don't rase above 5ppm, rather than the expected increase due to the bio-load. Calcium has dropped significantly. Added more calcium.

Conclusion: Nitrates were not reduced but maintained lower than tracked previously; this. Tests previous to Mangrove addition showed Nitrates raising to 20ppm every 2 weeks.
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Answers:
-Will put a pick when I figure out how to, he he he. My skimmer pump has a horizontal inlet covered in foam, the mangroves are standing on the foam about 3-4 inches from the surface. This location gives them a constant flow rate of approx. 1100L/h (290G/h).
-Don't know much about aquatraders.com, but noticed they sale the Odyssea light I have, which I bought form eBay; Very good light, by the way, especially for corals that don't require extreme intensity MHs, comes with fans and blue moon light leds which make corals look awesome at night.
-I think the red algae is Rhodymenia pseudopalmata or Grateloupia doryphora, not sure. Will post a pic soon. You are right here rcypert, this algae is contributing to the nitrate reduction. The tank seemed to reach 20ppm nitrate readings every 2 weeks. I agree the experiment would have been more interesting if the tank had higher nitrates, for longer. (Just couldn't wait any longer!). This sunday I tested the nitrates and had my LFS do it as well, both readings at about 5ppm.
-Hey flapjack1439, thanks for sharing, that ratio (Mangroves/Gallon) is around what I read is the appropriate. I added only 2 Mangroves for a couple of reasons, first, I wanted to put them to the test by overloading a few, tracking changes and gradually adding more. Second, I live in Montreal, so I can't get mangroves through eBay (customs: plants) and mangroves at LFS up here in the Artic are about $20+tx. a piece... and I have a wife, you know... wives don't go well with Reef Tanks! (he he, just kidding, she likes the results, but restricts the budget).

Cheers!

[RawFish]

Here is a Pick of the tank, you can see the red algae behind the Tomato Clownfish. Also on top and a bit to the right, you'll see the horizontal skimmer pump and it's foam covered inlet, where the 2 mangroves are standing on; you can see the roots.

http://pabloycris.homeip.net/Acuario...ition=download

Cheers!

[capn_hylinur]

You might be interested in this thread as much as I am interested in yours:

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...readid=1207565

[davy182]

Maybe a good guide as to how much they actually do is to remove them after you reach stable numbers and see if it increases or remains the same. If it increases then they are the reason the parameters are the way they are currently.

[NanoReefWanabe]

are we supposed to test for nitrates??

LOL i havent tested them since i finsihed the cycle...well maybe once every month or so...
i have added Mangrove..and would like to get some more...i just found out the NewMarket's Big Al's keeps them in the sump in the back...$15.00...i will have to grab a couple more..but your right it isnt cheap..

maybe i should go check mine now i havent checked since adding the Mangrove..over a month ago..

PS dont get me wrong...i check alk and calcium and mag and PH pretty much everyday...but i dont even know where my nitrite and ammonia kits are..

[RawFish]

Hi capn_hylinur, you have impressive systems! I want to go natural one day... though I don't think I'll get away from skimmers, unless I can simulate natural foam fractionation (LOL).

Hi davy182, you are more than right, thanks for the advice. Once I get 3 or 4 weeks with stable readings I'll remove them for a week to finalize the experiment, and post the results here.

Hey NanoReefWanabe, I see they're cheaper in Ontario! maybe Im getting quebec-taxed here (LOL). One LFS gets direct importations from the Pacific. I'm giving him this experiment's results so he orders mangroves, and sets me up with cheep seeds. He doesn't seem to know much about natural denitrification so this will get him and his customers very happy.

Cheers!

[eddybabyhd]

i believe mangroves can and will make a difference. This is my 65 gallon refuge on my 120, it has right around 100 mangroves in it. With huge root systems, and my skimmer hardly produces anything anymore

[RawFish]

Eddybabyhd... you are my new roll model!

1. What lights do you use?
2. How often do you change your DSB?
3. What other algae is in there?
4. What's the Flow Rate to the fuge?
6. If any, how do you convince your wife ($ and tanks all over)?

[eddybabyhd]

1. What lights do you use? 175watt cheapies from ebay

2. How often do you change your DSB? uhhhhh, i never have although you have got me worried now

3. What other algae is in there? mostly cheato, and feather calup.

4. What's the Flow Rate to the fuge? very slow, probably 100 GPH

6. If any, how do you convince your wife ($ and tanks all over)? Thats a tough one, she is probably just as involved with the tanks as me. We have been working setting up our coral website, so look closely for a new online coral vendor. She's the greatest

[capn_hylinur]

thanks eddybabyhd---this is my intention for the christmas holidays to finally set up the magroves.
How many did you start with originally and how fast do they grow.

[eddybabyhd]

i started with all of them, i contacted an ebay seller from hawaii and she sent me 115 of them for like 40 bucks. They grew into what you see over about 6-8 months, and have pretty much halted on upward growth. they are now growing to the side. I think alot of that has to do with the lights

here is a pic from the first day


here is a pic of the pipefish that lives in the other side, i think he is in heaven

[capn_hylinur]

what a deal

with that many of them---you must be very low on nitrates and phosphates---and they still are doing well---what do they feed on if your nitrates and phosphates are at an unmeasurable level?

[eddybabyhd]

to be honest I have no idea. The feed pump for the refuge draws directly from the area in the sump where the drains from the main display enter. My skimmer hardley produces anything, and I havent tested phosphates in a while. I can tell you that they do not show up with test kits, only with a photometer

I do feed the refuge though, i always put some food in there when i feed, maybe they are getting nutrients from there

We are building a house right now, and the new tank for the house is 10 feet long and 4 feet wide, one side the edge slopes up to a lagoon in which the mangroves will be transplanted. The tank will be mounted in wall so it wont look to odd

[davy182]

well if anyone needs mangroves let me know they are readily available floating on the inlets here in florida.

[capn_hylinur]

Originally posted by eddybabyhd
i started with all of them, i contacted an ebay seller from hawaii and she sent me 115 of them for like 40 bucks. They grew into what you see over about 6-8 months, and have pretty much halted on upward growth. they are now growing to the side. I think alot of that has to do with the lights

here is a pic from the first day


here is a pic of the pipefish that lives in the other side, i think he is in heaven

sorry for all the questions--but I have had intentions of setting this up for a long time

What substrate are you using in the mangrove fuge--is it just layers of argonite or are you using mud?

[eddybabyhd]

i just used coarse aragonite on the bottom and layered it with fine south down sand. I know thats a bitter word among the hobby. At the time i was buying it from the distributor in DFW for like 5 bucks a bag. I should have bought truckloads of it, and stored it in a warehouse. Just the demand in the hobby alone I could have retired by now