best nw skimmer out there?

[hahnmeister]

Well, I think its important to educate the consumer. I have been spending time doing PAR readings of various member's tanks... composite photos with PAR numbers from the quantum meter overlaid so people know what realistic PAR numbers really are for their own tanks, and others.

Here's the kicker. One buddy visited IMAC and saw the PFO display, where there was a PFO H4 LED unit 12" above a 12" tall zero edge tank, and the PAR sensor at the bottom gave a readout of 150. Then, next to it, a 400watt 20,000K on an e-ballast in an icecap reflector. The reading, in an identical setup, was a mere 130. Now, to the common eye, this makes the LED's look very good.

But since he knew what to expect from a real halide... his response was 'what the heck is this BS?!?!' because he gets PAR levels of 150-200 at the bottom of his 25" tall 320g with 250wattDE Ushio 10,000K bulbs, and across the entire area of his 21' square foot reef tank, not just the narrow patch that the PFO makes. Needless to say, he called the PFO guys on their 'handicapped' 400watt bulb.

The thing is, there are always going to be companies out there that try to pull stage tricks like this, and I do view the ATI implimentation of the bubble plate as one of them: "Look at our new skimmer, it has a bubble plate too!" Even though it doesnt do what people have come to expect from a bubble plate that actually diffuses turbulence.

So perhaps the best idea would be for Klaus to provide objective test data, or hard numbers to prove what he and I know to be true. I was not spoon fed anything by Klaus or anything BTW... my comments are 100% my own... the fact that Klaus happens to support my conclusions, although no accident, is not based on any prior discussions we have had. The bottom line, for what Im trying to say, is that the one product has a feature that isnt what many people assume... just like the seemingly superior PAR of a PFO Solaris unit.

[thirschmann]

for what its worth I just purchased a Deltec AP1003 and will post some pictures if you all want me to... PM me to let me know. I am extremely impressed by the build quality of the unit. Looking forward to running it on my new system.

[mavgi]

Originally posted by thirschmann
for what its worth I just purchased a Deltec AP1003 and will post some pictures if you all want me to... PM me to let me know. I am extremely impressed by the build quality of the unit. Looking forward to running it on my new system.

congratulation to you , you bought a real beast , i love to see some picture

[hahnmeister]

That is a monster... jeez.

[mavgi]

hahnmeister :

you asked in EuroReef Club some video of the RS250 in action....

first here it's a full picture for the CS250 , you can also ask Mr' Jeff from ER or EuroReef Tec1 to look on it and they will confirm that it's the same skimmer body size as the new RS250 and again the different it's the gray acrylic and the gate valve no more.




in this picture you can see how this skimmer mod with the mesh on the GEN X 6000 and pull 25LPM same as the ATI (i run it on max 23LPM because it was flood)



here it's 2 video that was made on this skimmer with mesh mod :





the skimmer have more turbulence then the ATI when it was working with mesh mod .
for the record i am the first one that did the mesh mod with enkamat here in RC and not the GG as other did (the GG mod in RC was first by Roland Jacques and after that by kentrob11) called it "mesh" (the material name maybe mesh but the different between those preformance are sky and ground)the first preview here on RC was in 10/06/2006 i don't know how much mod other ppl did but i did tons of them with a different pump , all those test was on this or my other CS8-3 skimmer that look clone to this (or RS250) one but without the gate valve . in all those test the skimmer make more turbulence then the ATI skimmer and bottom line my ATI skim twice then this one .

now for tea color skimming you can see this picture of my BM250 after clean it and this is not tea color :



for my tank : water parameter perfect bare bottom you hardly see some detritus build in the bottom after 2 week , the glass stay clean almost 2 week , 17 fish 2 mandarine 5 shrimps all look fat and beautiful what i feed them a day ppl don't feed in a week the skimmer clean the tank quick .

i put the ER and the BM in the same sump the result was in the BM twice , and the turbulance in the ER was more strong then the BM .

you don't need to convince me about this..

[mavgi]

you can see in this video to the ATB have turbulence same as the ATI :

http://www.meerwasserinfo.at/Kegelpf...schaeumer.html

[hahnmeister]

Alright alright... Ill conceed. There is no way to prove one way or another I suppose, and I do respect your opinion Magvi. But to shift gears here a bit, with that CS250 that can do 1500lph... why not just put a bubble plate on the outlet of the pump, and end up with the same thing as the ATI, if not better?

[hahnmeister]

These videos are too hard to see what is really going on. I think we need to do what Icecap/VorTech did and have those little plastic pellets that float around in the skimmer so you can actually see velocity in the skimmer.

[mavgi]

hahnmeister :

look also on this picture of the ATB under the plate same as the ATI :

[hahnmeister]

I wouldnt compare the ATB really... not that one at least. Look at the bubble pockets trapped underneath the plate seperator... sheesh... thats a problem. I dont think the ATB is the ideal either... its somewhere in between though.

The 'ideal' in case you want to know... Bill Wann's 30" diameter bubble plate skimmer. Calmest skimmer ever.

[mavgi]

Originally posted by hahnmeister
These videos are too hard to see what is really going on. I think we need to do what Icecap/VorTech did and have those little plastic pellets that float around in the skimmer so you can actually see velocity in the skimmer.

the problem was that my bulb was yellow one i used it in the past with the fuge , i believe wth bubble plate as i shown before it was more steady i also suggest that to OSTROW and he do it on his ASM gx5 with good result , but the main things that was interest me was what skimmer pull more out junk and the BM do it twice .

i also love those big skimmer more then the small one because of that i keep my ER and for more test in future like the laguna 3000 or the ESPA spain pump (i know that aquaexcel use them on different skimmer but maybe in future i will test some)

[mavgi]

Originally posted by hahnmeister
I wouldnt compare the ATB really... not that one at least. Look at the bubble pockets trapped underneath the plate seperator... sheesh... thats a problem. I dont think the ATB is the ideal either... its somewhere in between though.

believe me in the BM250 it's more calm.

[Oliver P.]

if you are trying to stop the rotation, why do it with a horizontal plate when a vertical plate has a vertical component to actually stop the spinning?

Because a vertical plate produce new turbulence. To use a bubble plate was the best option to stop 90% of the Rotation. We made many tests here.

it is used to diffuse turbulence...

You have always turbulence after ever single hole and it doesnt matter if the holes are conical or not conical. To diffuse turbulence you simply need the space (big reaction chamber) after the holes.

How can you say that "contact time of the bubbles is no key factor" here?

Because we made many tests. For example we compared a 35 heigh BM and a 21 heigh BM in the same tank. The Performance of both skimmers were exactly the same. This is what we find out in Tests, but let me try to explain it in this way:
If you throw a magnet in a bucket with nails it doesnt matter whether you let it there 10 seconds and move it or you just let it there for one second. You will remove the same quantity of nails. Or look at the drops that hits a window and hold there contact to the window. The physical Background is very similar here and everything happens under one second.
I hope I could give you an idea.

There are many opinions in the market. Most of them are unproven. Some say that their venturie is "plancton-friendly", some say you need a long conatact time of the bubbles and some say that they have the one and only bubble plate.

All I can say is that we go our way and that the proof is always on the skimmers.

Thanks,
Oliver

[DeltecRules]

I wonder if the ATB's will be available in the US soon.

[mavgi]

Originally posted by DeltecRules
I wonder if the ATB's will be available in the US soon.

they are small company and i don't believe they will be here soon but if you want you can order one .... they also expensive .

[klam114]

Originally posted by TwistedTiger
I can only speak for the BM200 and it definitely can be set to skim dry and dark. From the pics I've seen in threads here the same can be said of the BM250. However I have seen quite a few pics of BM's with people bragging about how much skim they get and it's clear as tap water. Maybe you're seeing some of those pics from BM owners that are not quite sure what skimming is and making a much too broad generalization that is less than accurate. I agree with much of what you have posted in this thread but the idea that the BM can only skim wet is very inaccurate from what I've seen on my skimmer.

A lot has happen in 24 hours to this thread. I just want to add that I have the same results with a 1st generation BM200, that I can skim wet or dry. I have seen dozens of posts from members saying that the BM200 can only skim wet because of the small body and riser size. When I first setup my BM200, it actually skim much to dry and since it was the first skimmer I ever owned, I didn't realize it was too dry. The skimmate collected was so dark it looked blacked, but my entire riser had collected this dark brown crud every week. My skimmer dealer, after seeing the photos told me that I was skimming too dry and needed to adjust for wetter skimming. You have to remember that I have a generation 1 BM200 where everyone was saying it only skims wet. My skimmer dealer has a generation 3 BM200 and the only time it skimmed wet was when it was breaking in. Since, he has tuned it down to better match the 100g tank that he has it on and it's always skimmed very dark, but still on the wetter side by choice. But I know it can skim dry if that's what he wanted.

I've seen a lot of posts on this thread going to all directions and it's been interesting reading. But we still don't have many recommendations that meet the original question of a 8" diameter body with at least 20schf air draw and around 20" tall. Meaning a power packed small skimmer like the BM200.

[hahnmeister]

Originally posted by Oliver P.

You have always turbulence after ever single hole and it doesnt matter if the holes are conical or not conical. To diffuse turbulence you simply need the space (big reaction chamber) after the holes.

right, and ATIs have a very small space on top of the bubble plate, so its not a diffuser. I think that many people think it is, just based on what they have seen before... but 5000lph of air and water shot up a about 7" diameter tube is anything but...

Because we made many tests. For example we compared a 35 heigh BM and a 21 heigh BM in the same tank. The Performance of both skimmers were exactly the same. This is what we find out in Tests, but let me try to explain it in this way:
If you throw a magnet in a bucket with nails it doesnt matter whether you let it there 10 seconds and move it or you just let it there for one second. You will remove the same quantity of nails. Or look at the drops that hits a window and hold there contact to the window. The physical Background is very similar here and everything happens under one second.
I hope I could give you an idea.

Okay, so why would one make a Bubbleking that is 7' tall then? Why are freshwater protein skimmers required to be so tall then or they dont even work? How could an AquaMedic T5000 that is 4' tall be rated for 2x the output of a 2' tall one based on height alone? I have a 4' skimmer, and it pulls out stinker, nastier skimmate than anything that is 2' tall with the same pumps. I agree, simply making two versions of the same skimmer... one being 21 and the other being 35 is not enough though... the taller skimmer will draw more less air with the same pumps, so you either need to force feed them, or use more pumps (and therefore a larger diameter to allow for more diffusion of water turbulence). Something about that comparison doesnt sound right... were you feeding both skimmers from the top like a counter-current, or from the bottom? This has a huge impact as well. Counter current is a huge advantage here to increase interface.

As for magnets in a bucket... there are some similarities to be drawn as well. If you throw a magnet in a bucket very fast, or even across the top of a pile of nails... it will pick up some nails, yes. But if you slowly drag it across the top, you will get many many more... nails will stick to nails even.

I get that with more and more magnets, less and less nails will be left behind until none are left... so there is more than one way to skin a cat (look at Becketts)... but still.... too little contact time, and each magnet only gets a few nails... and in skimmer terms, this means bubbles in the neck that prematurely pop and condense, losing their contents before getting to the top, so wet skimming is the solution. With a taller skimmer, you just dont get this as much... the bubbles are 'hardier', and dont pop in the collection neck as easily. You can skim dryer w/o losing as many nutrients to foam 'drainage'.

I dont know if I buy the whole 120second rule that some say.... I dont think that every bubble needs longer than a certain amount... but the air/water interface (which is what Escobal was talking about actually with this 120 second ideal it seems) should be longer to strip out more proteins. Im doing research on proteins and finding that the extended exposure to oxygen can convert many hydrophillic proteins to hydrophobic... related to the higher ORP that many recirc skimmers seem to have over their single-pass counterparts.

Otherwise, if what you are saying is all that matters, then your ATI bubblemaster 250 should perform as well as a Bubbleking 300. Oh, wait, no... the turbulence is a factor here. Wait... if time is not a factor, then how can turbulence be a factor? Turbulence, or velocity/impact is a function of time after all. So perhaps, the BM250 performs as well as a H&S A200 2x1260? Same 1800lph air throughput, right?


Thanks,
Oliver

[Fliger]

Hey all, I'm just wondering about these "conical" skimmers. I haven't been following the threads, but which one are or will be available in the US. I know KZ is, and have an interesting design. Are the others I see in this thread available?

Just wondering, thanks!

David

[Fliger]

dp

[mavgi]

Originally posted by Fliger
Hey all, I'm just wondering about these "conical" skimmers. I haven't been following the threads, but which one are or will be available in the US. I know KZ is, and have an interesting design. Are the others I see in this thread available?

Just wondering, thanks!

David

Fragfarmer (eric) have some in stock you can connect him .

you can order one from ATB anton can ship it but they different from the KZ skimmer (the KZ work like a bucket skimmer) and if we have a luck and the BM300 will be here when i dont know ..... it's conical desgin to .

[hahnmeister]

BTW, magvi means 'beckett skimmer', not bucket skimmer. It took me a moment to realize that one.

[mavgi]

Originally posted by hahnmeister
BTW, magvi means 'beckett skimmer', not bucket skimmer. It took me a moment to realize that one.

i did not put attention to that .... normal i review and fix (and always edit....) but i was to busy with PM and email to answer ....

and by the way it's Mavgi not Magvi

[bernie lyons]

Owned a deltec AP-1003/4 and a H&S A-450 (5 x 1260 eheim pinwheel )- external skimmer . Both are very good design's.
However on my next tank I will go back to a dual beckett design as it is superior to oxygenating and turning over the tanks water column compared to ANY pinwheel design out there !
benie lyons