Can we talk about Zeo, if we promise to be civil?

[kabboord]

Alright, in the last few weeks, on the constant odessy of reefkeeping I've read and noticed a lot out there about zeovit. I've also noticed that there seems to be what some might categorize as a 'negative' backlash towards the system here on reef central. I understand and agree with most of the critics. I would personally, never ever use any product that has this bizarre policy of secrecy. Lookinig at the users, sure the results are there. I mean I guess anyone who does huge water changes and runs BB is well on the way to a good tank.

So I've been thinking and doing lots of reading on the internet and I completely understand reef central's position; and I completely understand how capitalism plays into all this. I personally go to reef central when I need to know what the cutting edge, authorative input is on some aspect of reefkeeping. Sure there is lots of 'white noise' but on RC you are able to glean the good from the bad. But I believe there is undoubtly a 'zeo' backlash. This is understandable. The zeo people have their own site, that perhaps might be slightly more authorative on the subject than RC, and RC is concerned with a loss of traffic to a competing site, with competiting ideas of reefkeeping. But it seems that this extreme backlash, might hurt RC in the long run. Wanting to know about zeo, I've had to direct where I look (and consequently who gets to advertise too me with their banners) to the other site. To be honest, I'd rather get all my info from RC. But that being said...

Can we discuss Zeo here if we all promise to be civil with eachother? Saying this I realize I am frequently a rebel rouser and frequently get put on notice for my behavor; This is not my intent with this post! I promise. Actually my interest in zeo is that with all of the resources on here we should be able to figure out what the hell is in the stuff. Nothing would make me happier than for the method to be exposed, so we could all accomplish better reefs, on our own dime instead of spending money on some propriatary stuff. I said in an earlier post, if people had kept Bicarb and Kalk secret we would be years behind.

A good example of this is I was looking at eductors and found some sights that sell them, affordably too. The site also had a link, 'if you dont want to buy ours heres how to DIY it'. I've seen several products that do this, and I've happily bought from them. If you really want to make money off this hobby, you can. Theres a million ways to do it without secrecy. I think one of the most brilliant ways to make money of this hobby is to organize a message board with a bunch of great info in one place, and then sell banner adds at the top! RC is genious, I'm sure they make a buck or two, and theres no secrecy involved.

The whole purpose of this post is to see if we can have civil discussions about this zeo stuff. There might be something there and a significant amount of people in our hobby are trying it. If we here on RC can figure out whats going on with it, and do it ourselves we would all be better off and would perhaps be able to thumb or noses at those who are more concerned with lining their own pockets; than sharing knowledge that could help us all.

[gregt]

We can talk about Zeo if we ARE civil.

What you see as "zeo backlash" is actually RC protecting you from what was a full court press of commercially interested parties.

The marketing job they did was phenominal. They made it seem that any time someone said something negative about the product they were being attacked. They play the victim, and still are. The fact is that there IS serious reasons to question your usage of this product. It HAS killed corals in many tanks. THIS IS WHY WE ARE HERE. NOT TO PUSH THEIR PRODUCT. That is not to say that the product is bad. But it goes against everything RC is about to ignore the fact that it is happening and to attack people for bringing it up. Which is exactly what has happened.

This has nothing do to with traffic going to another site. We have more than enough traffic here not to worry about that. This is about a site that allows members to publish methods of doing unethical and very possibly illegal things to damage THIS site. We will not stand for that. They were told very simply multiple times of the offending items and what would occur if they were allowed to remain. IMO, it is our duty to protect our members from this situation. We allow links to pretty much any other site if it is for educational purposes. However, we do not believe that it makes sense in any way to allow links to a site that publishes ways to damage us. It's that simple.

It is true that I personally do not have any interest in the product, but I don't have any interest in a lot of products and I've never been accused (or worse) of the things that some of the zeo crowd has accused me of by anyone else. I've never seen a reputable board allow lies and laughing about trouble members have caused be posted about another sites staff. The site in question recently allows those things. They are not there for hobbyists. They are their for only loyal followers. Try to have a real discussion there about the negatives of their system and see what happens. Again, early on I worked hard with some of the more reasonable members of their group to help them with some issues they had. But in the end they felt it more advantageous to be martyrs than to be ethical.

I too am tired of not being able to discuss zeo. But I'm also tired of the "threads started by financially interested parties for advertisement", the "lies" being told about our staff and the way we've dealt with the situation, the general disrespect for our membership and the rules that protect them.

All I can tell you is that you have to walk a mile in our shoes. We've been through the grist mill on this one, and we've had enough. Conversations will be balanced, "real" (ie: not trolling to cause trouble), and fair. If you have been warned or even banned previously and you break the rules even slightly on this topic, you're gone. No more can you spit in our virtual faces and get away with it.

I too would love to see civil conversations about this product. I believe that is what educates us all. But the staff is not going to allow the conversation to be guided by deceitful practices of commercial product endorsers.

[Ereefic]

Thank you Gregt for that explination. Just wish you could of said this sooner.

[ricka]

As long as we promise to keep this civil I'll participate. I've tried to discuss my zeo use in several threads and they all get nasty. If this one gets nasty, I'll just stop posting.

With the above provisos, what would you like to know about zeovit? I have been using it for 9 months now and I am clearly in phase three. Phase three is the stage when you have remove all of your leached phosphates from the rocks/sand/etc and the tank has stable low nutrients.

--Rick

[Dr. Mac]

I recently became aware of Zeovit and am also interested in it from the standpoint of like everyone else I would love to get better growth and color out of Acros. I do not currently use, sell, or know much about it. But, many of my serious Acro customers have recently told me they use it and have had good sucess for some time. If you notice even the TOTM this month uses it, so maybe some inquires in that thread may answer some honest questions. I have not heard from one of my customers that use it that it "kills" corals, but they have also told me it requires a more observational methodology than many hobbyists are not willing or capable of doing---I don't know since I have not used it yet. Again, I have no personal knowledge but am interested in trying it myself.

I think it is worth a trial considering so many of my most advanced customers use it and swear by it. Being that I am a sponsor here on RC and the recent past issues related to some folks posting about this system, I will refrain from posting further about it, but I too would like to see a civil discussion on the topic. As kabboord said, it seems the results are there at least in the few tanks I have personally seen pics of---(such as this month's TOTM).

I would be interested in hearing FIRST HAND accounts of problems and successes with the system, also costs and time involved in using it---I would think if those posting stick just to the FIRST HAND accounts and facts of THEIR ACTUAL usage and the name calling and jabbing with such things as "gee your dumb for using that" or "I have great success without that so who needs it" kind of comments will hopefully not cloud the facts and maybe mods can delete such posts.

I guess the problem with this issue is that unlike for example some years back when heated discussions on RC were about the use of DSBs when they were first introduced or the long knock down drag out threads on proper reef tank temps about the same time, no one then had a vetsed interest in the method, with this there is a commercial product involved so to even talk about it will get close to crossing a commercial line and possibly violate RC rules. So, lets see how it goes, I for one am legitimately interested in learning, good or bad. Anyone with first hand usage knowledge please post.

[reefplayer]

Hi all,
I am a zeohead myself and have been in for 4 months and nearly 5. I am sceptical about such concept at first when being introduced by my friend. When i read those instructions about zeovit, i.e. min 10% water change everyweek, good lighting, powerful skimmer, constant filtration with activated carbon. Here again with all those good water parameter as recommended by the manual. Then i thought, if one practices all, maybe even with a more traditional method will have the same result.

However, i had a go for it and realize that some of my corals are killed because of lack of judgement on dosing. Most will overdose and result in sps being stn. I have no complains as i witness my tank water nutrient level goes down dramatically and especially PO4 = 0.04 (using Hanna photometer). Furthemore, some of my sps reacted very well.

The only problem is one has to see the reaction of the corals and judge your own dosings which is very difficult. Even following the same instructions given by the manual would have no help as different tank has different needs.

It all depends on yourself whether are you passionate enough to take a risk on your corals to try out something new which promises an exceptional result?

[gregt]

It all depends on yourself whether are you passionate enough to take a risk on your corals to try out something new which promises an exceptional result?

I am very passionate about such things which is exactly why I won't use a product that even the main proponents do not really know how it works or what is in it or exactly what the proper dosages are for my tank. I personally find your statement offensive to assume that just because I don't try a product that means I'm not as passionate as you are. It's that kind of statement that causes problems. I believe I am getting exceptional results without risking my corals. The reverse, but exact equivalent to your statement would be for someone to say that "It all depends on yourself whether you are silly enough to take a risk rather than use time tested techniques.". That is also offensive and both types of statements should be restrained.

[JB NY]

I don't read that comment as a knock on people who don't try the product that they don't care about getting the best results from a particular method. I read it more like, are you willing to try a product that might have some problems that you will have to work through to get right. The results of which might be something that you find helpful to your being able to keep these corals successfully.

Personally, I have not seen the results from others that would make me want to try the product. That said, people are happy with using the system that Zeovit offers. To me, it seems more work and effort for what it returns. I think a lot has to do with what you are currently able to achieve with whatever method you have chosen to pursue.

[Dr. Mac]

Yes, obviously many methods can get us to the same end point we all are after. Question is if this method is of use and the only way to find out is to try it or have those that actually use it post here their good and bad experiences. I took reefplayers comment as not to be offending anyone, just maybe a language issue. I would like to hear from reefplayer as to the dosing issues he experienced and from others what they have found. Have they tried other methods of nutrient reduction and turned to zeo then and if so how has it worked.

Risking you corals has been mentioned , what are the risks, or are these perceived risks---I'm just asking because I don't know and would like to. From the brief conversations I have had with a couple of my customers late last week they seem to feel they do in fact know what this is and what it does, at least in general terms of how each component of the systems works, maybe not exact ingedients as far as I know. Still would like to hear a lot more first hand experiences bad or good and keep the passions out of it if at all possible. It is nice to hear that someone will not use something becasue they don't know what it is or how exactly it works, but if we never hear from those that might know then we will never know the facts---all we will have are perceptions and second hand accounts. Can we keep this on track with some more first hand experiences of those that actually use the stuff or those that tried it and stopped for whatever reason?

[reefplayer]

Originally posted by gregt
I am very passionate about such things which is exactly why I won't use a product that even the main proponents do not really know how it works or what is in it or exactly what the proper dosages are for my tank. I personally find your statement offensive to assume that just because I don't try a product that means I'm not as passionate as you are. It's that kind of statement that causes problems. I believe I am getting exceptional results without risking my corals. The reverse, but exact equivalent to your statement would be for someone to say that "It all depends on yourself whether you are silly enough to take a risk rather than use time tested techniques.". That is also offensive and both types of statements should be restrained.

Hi Greg,
Sorry if my statement sounds offensive which i dont mean to. As i have mentioned i have risked some of my previous corals on using zeovit, but i myself cannot blame zoevit system as there are many things behind a death of a coral least to mention my own husbandary methods which may be the cause of it. Again, will my corals survive if i am using conventional methods?
I am not here to sell any zeovit products or push anyone yo have a go on it, but rather to share my thoughts. Please dont get me wrong.

4 to 5 months on this system, i am only 50% confidence of this product actually works. Previously i was using rowa to remove PO4 and it did well but colours of my corals are not that amazing. However, after switching to this system, i have lost quite a number of my sps, but some of my sps have amazing colours. not those dark but pastel colours. I am putting my fingers cross that these do not die me out. I am just a novice user and 4 to 5 months onto it doesnt prove anything. I am willing to take another 2 mths before i decide whether to keep it or change to conventional method.

[gregt]

Risking you corals has been mentioned , what are the risks, or are these perceived risks---I'm just asking because I don't know and would like to.

I am aware of at least 4 cases that at least 50% coral loss occurred when beginning zeovit. I do not know the details and I wish these people felt more comfortable sharing their experience so we could learn from it.

[gregt]

I don't read that comment as a knock on people who don't try the product that they don't care about getting the best results from a particular method.

The point that I am trying to make to people on both sides of the aisle is that it is important to stick to personal opinions and not label those on the other side.

That is the root of a lot of the problems we've had with these conversations in the past.

[Dr. Mac]

I would like to hear from some of those 4 cases, no reason to fear coming on. Heck, I have stuck my neck out on this thread, so lets hear the experiences. Reefplayer you seem to say your bad experiences were not the fault of the zeo system, can you give some details? Can you attribute the losses to anything else you did to your system at that time? Maybe the TOTM owner can chime in here and relate his experiences, any losses after starting that can be related to the system, did you try other nutrient reduction systems first, and if so have as good a results as you obviously are having now??

[gregt]

As I understand it, one of the parts of the system was reformulated because the initial version was causing problems. Perhaps someone that has more understanding of those issues would like to speak up to clarify. It is certainly one of the big issues I see with the product. An unknown ingredient that needs to be reformulated due to issues. I admit I'm a cautious person by nature, but that it just a big red flashing light to me.

[thrlride]

Originally posted by gregt
I am aware of at least 4 cases that at least 50% coral loss occurred when beginning zeovit. I do not know the details and I wish these people felt more comfortable sharing their experience so we could learn from it.

I think the issue is that the start method using zeo start was the risky part. They now have start 2 which is supposed to be more safe.

I've considered trying this, just haven't taken the first leap.

[Cayman_Snorkler]

No losses here, but I stopped because my acros were getting lighter and lighter, scary lighter. I want to say thin. I am A Medical Laboratory Technologist. I tried to isolate bacteria in Zeo-bac to no avail. I tried multiple methods to view via microscopy and to culture said bacteria with none resulting in growth. CAVEAT: I tried many methods, but not all methods. ADDENDUM: it sure wiped out hair algae, but as many have stated with the maintainance regimen used in this method who's to know if it was the zeo or the diligent maintainance.

[fishdoc11]

Nice discussion.

Thank you Gregt for that explination. Just wish you could of said this sooner.

My sentiments exactly.
I personally have no interest in trying the product but I know several local reefers either have tried it or are thinking about it so I'm posting a link in our forum

[gregt]

Originally posted by thrlride
I think the issue is that the start method using zeo start was the risky part. They now have start 2 which is supposed to be more safe.

Based on what? What's the difference in the two? How many years of study were done to determine this one is "safe"? (ie: won't cause problems as well down the road) What caused the problems with the first formula and how does this one resolve them?

[Agu]

Regarding the Zeovit "Rocks" this might be of interest,

http://mineral.galleries.com/mineral...i/clinopti.htm

fwiw,

[Weatherman]

Originally posted by kabboord
A good example of this is I was looking at eductors and found some sights that sell them, affordably too. The site also had a link, 'if you dont want to buy ours heres how to DIY it'. I've seen several products that do this, and I've happily bought from them.

The eductor example is a good one, and it illustrates why I’d be very hesitant to try zeovit right now.

Eductors have been around for a long time, and are used in a wide variety of commercial operations. Although some of the efficiency claims by some manufacturers are suspect (400% increase in flow across all ranges of pressures), the physical reasons as to why eductors work are well know by those familiar with computational fluid dynamics.

I like tools of this sort, which have applications outside the world of reefkeeping, especially commercial operations. For understandable reasons, business owners don’t tend to be big risk takers, so, if a wide variety of businesses are successfully using a product, it suggests the product works as advertised.

Going back to zeovit, I have to question why I don’t hear about any commercial aquaculture operations using it. If it performs, as claimed, it would appear to be a godsend. As soon as business people are willing to risk their livelihood on zeovit, I’ll feel comfortable using it in my own tanks.

[nyfireman3097]

I am using zeovit currently for 7 months i have seen ALOT of changes no loses of any corals only thing i have seen so far are colors i never had before the people that CAN explain the system on how it works are on there site they are no longer members here The reason some have lost corals are due to the fact of overdosing th products ODing the dosages are the same effects of ROWA phosban ect... where if you stirp out to much to quick you will shock the system When i started and much like many others we go to the board which was here but now on the other site and tell about our systems we have now and the proper authorities tell you what to dose the dosings on the label are not the best way to go Gary the man who invented it has to fix his labels you are right about the start2 on how many years has it been tested thing it has been tested but not for years as for as i know but again i can be wrong i never looked into that but it is safer it cost the same as start1 start1 has been pulled off the selfs and nno longer avail. i have convinced my friend at his LFS to use it he could never keep acros colorful or alive for to long and now has a amazing setup as far as keep up i DO NOTHING DIFFRENT THEN BEFORE OTHER THEN DOSE MY ADDITIVES i always did weekly WC always used carbon and always used a strong skimmer my growth has been g8 and colors are awesome people always come over to buy frags and trade and are amazed by my colors and when i tell them about it look into zeo due to my sucess YES good husbandtry is important but its important even if you dont use zeo i clean my glass off 2x a week tops of a very light haze that is not seen unless you look close no alage anywhere on my rock as far as the BB goes not every zeo user has BB thatas a chose people make when they wanna have alot of flow and cant due to sand thats why i went BB i have 3 tunze 6100's in my tank and could never with sand it would be everywhere but like i said the guys that can explain how it works correctly are not RC members i dont wanna try and mislead anyone HTH any other questions i will do my best in awnsering but PLEASE PLEASE do nt start in with not needed comments i am also like many others sick and tired of the arguments about Zeovit i use it and love it and thats me to each there own
Nick

[EvilMel]

Cayman, I am really interested in your microscopic studies. Did you stain the cells prior to examination and then saw nothing? What total magnification did you use to view the bacteria?

[greg65]

Weatherman,
If Im not mistaken, one of our aquaculture vendor/sponsors DOES use zeovit and has been for some time.

-greg-

[Ereefic]

nyfireman, can you please go through that post and use periods? I tried to read that but just couldn't.

Congratulation on the worlds longest run on sentence though.

[nyfireman3097]

lmao ill try next time to do so.