Berlin VS Smithsonian

[WILDTHING]

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...&highlight=ats



http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...&highlight=ats


here you go.

[tankslave]

Originally posted by Rook
If only I could get the search function to work

That's why it Pays to Be a Memeber.

I think its more of a form of extortion, its the only reason I paid.

[tankslave]

Originally posted by Flatlander
I have to disagree with the idea of turf algae of even a sump full of algae only filtering from trapping detritus.

But you have to agree that it does trap detritus.

[toonces]

well, i have to say that i've really enjoyed this thread! i love threads with some beef.

if you haven't already, i highly recommend the book "dynamic aquaria" which is by adey and is all about the ats. there's ton of useful info in there besides that as well.

when i finished that book, before i set up my current tank, i was all about an ats. i think the reason you don't see them more is that there are simply easier ways to do the tank without an ats. i can set up my tank with good flow, put a skimmer in an under the tank sump, empty the cup every few days, and it's all good. the ats system, while touting simplicity, seems more user intensive and has drawbacks with the discoloring, etc. i guess there's just a different, easier mentality out there with the skimmer, refugium method.

and, the only person i can think of that runs an ats is putawaywet, and i think he had some problems with it. they're definately not "everywhere".

[vitz]

trap=merely relocated to continue polluting the system

[Flatlander]

Thanks Wildthing.

tankslave, My turf scrubber traps very little detritus, because of the constant back & forth motion of the turf algae & water in the dump tray. Now my friends 100g sump full of calerpa is another story. However is has absolutely no effect on his stunning 180g aquarium.

toonces, I have to disagree with my turf scrubber being more work than a skimmer. Its perhaps the other way around. When leaving for a few days, there is nothing for the sitter to do but feed and check the top-off system. The scrubber screen is good for days if not a week or more.

Thats especially true when a beckett skimmer with those *%%# thumb screws comes into play. Although I,m not sure which smells more, the skimate getting dumped or the turf screen getting scraped. Either one draws my wifes attention.

There are several aquarists here using the wheel type algae filtration. None that I know of anymore using the same system as I.

[physicslord]

Just wondering,

Does anyone know what has happened to Walter Adey since the failure of the Smithsonian aquarium? Has he been disgraced or is he still working?

[physicslord]

All I can tell from GOOGLE is that he still works there as curator of Botany.

[physicslord]

Originally posted by Bomber

Not much - all - Bio I and II were both failures also. For the exact same reasons. Algae leak.

Okay, it's killing me, I just have to comment on this ...

On page 1 Bomber appears to be saying Biosphere I was a failure.

Unless I'm mistaken, that's a very funny goof cause biosphere I was the Earth. That's why they called the place "biosphere II".

[tankslave]

wern't there two bioshpheres though?

[Rook]

Doug/Wildthing, those are some great threads with a lot of information. I'll have to read them more carefully when I get the chance

[physicslord]

Actually, I think he's so advanced now he's picking a fight with God.

[barryhc]

Originally posted by physicslord
Actually, I think he's so advanced now he's picking a fight with God.

I don't know about "advanced", but at least God can run a DSB.

> barryhc

[Rascal]

All you critics are playing arm-chair quarterback. Adeys research dates back over 20 years, and his display at the smithsonian is as old. Think about the advances in lighting alone in that period. What would everyones aquarium look like if we all implemented 4200k metal halides. Give the guy a break. He's a bright man.

[vitz]

Originally posted by Rascal
All you critics are playing arm-chair quarterback. Adeys research dates back over 20 years, and his display at the smithsonian is as old. Think about the advances in lighting alone in that period. What would everyones aquarium look like if we all implemented 4200k metal halides. Give the guy a break. He's a bright man.

adey's success or lack thereof, has less (much less) to do with technological advances than with some very flawed basic assumptions on his part re: the dynamics of closed system aquaria

imo :P

[Flint&Eric]

Tagging

[inwall75]

Originally posted by Rascal
All you critics are playing arm-chair quarterback. Adeys research dates back over 20 years, and his display at the smithsonian is as old. Think about the advances in lighting alone in that period. What would everyones aquarium look like if we all implemented 4200k metal halides. Give the guy a break. He's a bright man.

The first time I unplugged a powerhead with my hand soaking wet and got zapped, I said, "I'm NEVER doing that again!!!".

It appears from his track record that Adey would repeat his mistakes again if someone was dumb enough to give him the chance. Apparently, he chooses not to learn from his mistakes and/or failures.

[toonces]

i think the attempt is admirable though.

if you read his book, his ideas are interesting. he builds the aquarium as an ecosystem, and describest the logic behind the animals he stocks in the tanks. things like having an apex predator for the tank and so on...and functions of the tank to represent other areas of a coral reef ecosystem.

in one part of the book, he breaks down all of the different life in the tank. it's pretty wild.

[RiddleLabs]

Aloha,

Just my 2 cents worth... Adey's ATS technology was licensed to several companies. John Walch in Phoenix had a small 'demo' (I never actually saw it) and there were two larger commercial ventures: Morgan Lidster's Inland Aquatics (Indiana) and Mark & Vanessa Clark's Aquatic Wildlife (Cleveland, TN). I had the pleasure of being the invert guy at the Clark's facility for two years.
I started there when the Adey/Sprung debates raged over the merits (or non-merits) of Berlin and ATS systems. Frankly, I had been brainwashed by the overwhelming firestorms against ATS and my 110-gallon tank in my Atlanta home was indeed a Berlin system. It worked just fine (in retrospect probably a little over-skimmed), but Wildlife's ATS systems were successful as well. We had 3 large systems with 3 algae dump buckets plus a smaller 'mini system.' The retail portion also had ATS systems. If I recall correctly, there was 16,000 gallons of water filtered by ATS.
The corals and fish were healthy and growing. Being charged with care of the inverts, we did a great deal of coral propagation work and were successful. We eventually added calcium reactors to meet the demand of thousands of growing corals, and added ETS skimmers to take care of some of the organics (generally added by the turf algae when the ATS pads were scrpaed of excessive algal growth).

Andy Amussen and I were given a tour of the Smithsonian facility (upstairs and all) by Bill Hoffman (I think that was his name). The large tank had some problems with Porites corals and there was some cyanobacteria smothering other corals. But the clam tank was spectacular and coral larvae-planulae had settled on the walls of the 'upstairs' tank.

There are many 'experts' who can't (or won't) take the time to learn the special requirements of running an ATS. They WILL work if managed properly. They just offer a different set of operational problems than the Berlin systems.

Would ATS be my first choice - probably not. I was never completely comfortable with the amount of algal metabolites added to the water (a skimmer helps). The real problem is that many turf algae are natural competitors of corals. If conditions within the tank ever become more favorable to the algae than in the ATS, then algae will migrate to the tank. It is not a pretty picture when Hypnea or other red algae invade an SPS tank.

I like the idea of a refugium with less invasive algal growth (Caulerpas, calcareous algae). The algae is harvested with minimal bleeding to the show tank.

Again, my 2 cents worth, (maybe worth 3 cents because I've run both types of systems with great success).

Dana

[titoreefs]

Adey has been working with the development of a public aquarium here in P.R. I know the people in charged of the project and its close to completion.As a local saying goes" the worse horses are sold far away".I guess the guy deserves a break but if he knows theres something wrong with the system he should make the required adjustments and then keep selling the product or the idea backed up with the proof.If to this day there hasnt been any inproovement to the system (like i was told by the person runing the project) then the guy is in for an other failier.

[Rascal]

Dana,

Thank you for the post...very enlightening. My check for 3 cents is in the mail.

Titoreefs,

Please keep us updated if possible. I'd love to get some more details about this new project.

[Flatlander]

Hi Dana,
Thanks for your thoughts. I have always found my tanks to run better when using a skimmer with my scrubber. Thats part of what makes me wonder about its capabilities.

As you mentioned, I have also had a persistant problem over the years, with some red turf algae on my rock. The only decent control seems to be urchins. Mind you, much of my rock is now 15 yrs. old or so.

I, for one, have given my turf scrubber more than the benefit of doubt but as time passes, and I see less aquarists using them or interested in them, it causes me to wonder.

[physicslord]

Originally posted by RiddleLabs
Aloha,

Just my 2 cents worth... Adey's ATS technology was licensed to several companies. John Walch in Phoenix had a small 'demo' (I never actually saw it) and there were two larger commercial ventures: Morgan Lidster's Inland Aquatics (Indiana) and Mark & Vanessa Clark's Aquatic Wildlife (Cleveland, TN).

Here's something I don't get.
How did these companies expect to make money off the technique? Were they going to manufacture turf scrubbers?

[inwall75]

Nope....just distributors.

[RiddleLabs]

Aloha,

>>How did these companies expect to make money off the technique? Were they going to manufacture turf scrubbers?<<

Inland and Aquatic Wildlife were licensed by Adey to use his patented algal scrubbers. Adey's vision was one of cooperating aquaculture centers from coast to coast, with each specializing in a specific product (fishes, corals, etc.). In reality, only two aquaculture facilities were built, and each went their own way.
So, these firms were to recoup their investments by breeding and growing out fishes, and propagating corals (something believed by many to be impossible at the time. I wish I had a log of conversations with 'experts' telling me that we could not grow corals... water pressure could never be right... corals only grow an inch per century...improper lighting...touching them would kill them...mysteries of the deep... you name it).

Small 'home-sized' ATS units were marketed by both firms, as were refugiums (which didn't really catch on until Leng Sy marketed his Miracle Mud refugiums). Of course, Adey would receive a royality on every unit sold by his licensed distributors.

Dana