Lab analysis of instant ocean and other salt mixes

[cd77]

A giant paint shaker is what first came to mind when I read that. Those buckets are pretty heavy to be shaking like a test tube -- well, for me at least.

[Toddrtrex]

I let FedEx/UPS deliver it to my door, seems to mix it up perfectly.

I have a bucket of TM Pro mixed up at home, I will try to do some basic tests on it tonight, just to see how they compare.

[cayars]

An experiment you can try. Break out the test kits you have the most faith in and test both calcium and alkalinity on your first mix as soon as you open the bucket. Record your numbers.

Do the same when you get to the last salt in the bucket.

Compare the numbers and see if there is a measurable difference. If you notice a difference...

Not the most ideal way but A WAY to mix/use your salt from 150 gallong buckets. Grab 3 emptry clean buckets and a small garden hand shovel (use for this purpose only) and scoop out salt into each bucket in rotation. This will divide your salt up into 3 50 gallons mixes. At 35% it will mix to about 42-43 gallons which is just about perfect for a brute 44 gallon container.

Put lid on each bucket and then roll each down the hill. Actually you could mix each individual bucket now since they weigh less but probably don't need to mix the salt at all if you do it this way (more or less) since you "evenly" divided the salt into 3 containers. Then just mix each of the full containers when it's time. This of course assumes you can/want to mix up 42-43 gallons a shot.

Carlo

[Toddrtrex]

I am going to have to order another bucket soon. So I will test the first batch of water that comes from that one.

[SDguy]

Originally posted by Toddrtrex
I let FedEx/UPS deliver it to my door, seems to mix it up perfectly.

[LobsterOfJustice]

As far as how to mix the salt: just divide the bucket into two buckets when you open it. Then its usually light enough and has enough empty space to mix. Just turn it over a few times and roll it before you use it.

Toddrtrex, I know you were joking, but actually shipping is what makes the salt settle. The minute vibrations of being in the back of the truck actually helps "fluidize" the salt and sorts it due to size and density.

Anyway, BACK ON TRACK...

[DrBegalke]

I've wondered this about salt mixes as well. I would imagine the smaller volume you use, the better for illustrating a difference.

[DrBegalke]

Originally posted by Boomer
Dr

I have no issue with you running it the way you want, as jd said.

Let them test, forget about double checks, involving other companies, blind tests or complicating this matter. That's it. Hands off please we just want test of those salts same way they will test anyone elses

This is what I thought the original intent was suppose to be.

As far as blind samples at some time that is another issue and fine. We are getting something for free and should take advantage of it.

I really did not want to get evolved with this and was only concerned with can they test for bromide. I think the poll is a good idea and what I was driving at in the other thread. We do not want to take advantage of them to much. We need to vote on things.

5) If possible, pH is to be measured 1 hr after mixing and at 24 hours. (I am not sure what practical information testing at 12 hours would yield).

It is just a guide that is often done and is not something we have to have. And actually there would be more than 3, like every 4-6 hrs. It just tells you how long it take x salt to get to equilibrium.

I think it would be a good ides as I said earlier to seen what Salinity you get at 35 grams of salt in 965 ml of water. This is one of the most common tests done in any study on ASW. It equates to how many gals of salt mix you get out of a bag. It is the cost efficient dollar value, what a "buck" will get you.

17. Another source of NSW?

Yes, CaribSea's new NSW "SEA-PURE"

The first statement about "hands off" that you replied to wasn't mine, I am actively encouraging input/alternate ideas as I want this to be useful to us on the board. I kind of stumbled upon being the middleman as I was emailing AWT about my own reference kit... So again, all ideas welcomed. I do agree that we are getting some valuable info for free, so I am trying to balance the advantages of a complex study without taking advantage of the generous offer from AWT.

I understand now the value of interval testing pH in order to get a time to equilibrium. Maybe sometime we can design a study specifically looking at that issue, as for right now I asked them to test at 1 hr and 24hr.

Good point about the 35g in 965mL test of salinity. I thought a lot of this had to do with local conditions, etc. i.e. a bag of IO in Phoenix AZ at 115 deg and 3% humidity would test different then the same exact salt at 70 deg and 100% humidity?

Also, thanks for the heads up on SEA-PURE.

[Boomer]

All salts have moisture and if the bag is not opened there is little change in it. Bags are fairly well protect for this and most are breathable for gas exchange otherwise they blow up like a balloon. This was an issue with IO many years ago when a pallet of bags got out that were suppose to left in the warehouse to see what the gas exchange rates would be with a new plastic. It was by shear chance that these boxes ended up at our local pet store. The were 10 gal boxes and all where swelled up and splitting at the seams

The first statement about "hands off" that you replied to wasn't mine

I know, it was jd and I tend to agree. We can not really be putting to many constraints on them, which is what I think we were starting to do.

[cayars]

I agree Boomer in case it came across different. Different tests if they do it. KISS principle!

Really the only things I'd suggest is use very pure RO/DI water or distilled for each sample and it should all come from the same batch of water if using RO/DI.

Use small bags of salt and use the complete bag not a partial bag/bucket when mixing. This is very important! This does away with any settlement issues completely.

Mix all salt to 35% salinity with something that has been calibrated preferably a digital salinity meter although a refractometer will work too. Definitely should be calibrated with the 53mS solution.

Besides the normal things they test YOU COULD SUGGEST to them to also add an IRON test if possible) and make that part of their normal service if possible. This is something that Low Nutrient Systems would/could use.

Carlo

[Boomer]

Carlo it came across that many of us where headed in that direction, me and you included And why I posted jd's comment.

[NewMariner]

Id like to see this test done, however I would say not to use lab grade ro/di. We use hobbiest ro/di and I would suggest for the lab to use hobbiest ro/di. Im not interested in finding out what pristine conditions could find on these tests. Im more interested in the real world applications and tests as to what is in the difference of salt. Lab tests state that you shove 3 hd channels and 1 sd channel down a copper pair of phone lines. Real world results are not so optimistic.

Simply put, lets test what hobbyist are more interested in for the care of their livestock, using the same techniques hobbiest go about using the salt. If they come back and say Salt A is better then Salt B because we used Grade Lab Water...what does that do for the majority of us? We dont have Grade Lab water to mix our salt with.

Starting TDS should be tested. I would say test mix at 1 hour, 12, hours, and 24 hours. That should be sufficient. Test for all the minerals mentioned above. Temp should be consistent through each batch.

Other then that lets get this test going!

[HowardW]

Originally posted by Macimage
I forgot to mention that I was also told one of the major LAX wholesalers was having horrible problems with their systems and finally figured out it was the Catalina water.


Joyce

That doesn't surprise me one bit. As I said in an earlier post, the Catalina Real Ocean Water I tested came out at nearly 19dKH and virtually every other param I tested was also off from NSW. I sincerely doubt I got the one and only 'off' box of it. Of course when I reported my test results to the 'chief scientist' at Catalina I was told my test results were impossible because of their quality control measures and rigorous testing after each 10000g batch is made.........yeah right I wouldn't use that Catalina water if I got it for free.

[cd77]

Originally posted by NewMariner
Id like to see this test done, however I would say not to use lab grade ro/di. We use hobbiest ro/di and I would suggest for the lab to use hobbiest ro/di. Im not interested in finding out what pristine conditions could find on these tests. Im more interested in the real world applications and tests as to what is in the difference of salt. Lab tests state that you shove 3 hd channels and 1 sd channel down a copper pair of phone lines. Real world results are not so optimistic.

Simply put, lets test what hobbyist are more interested in for the care of their livestock, using the same techniques hobbiest go about using the salt. If they come back and say Salt A is better then Salt B because we used Grade Lab Water...what does that do for the majority of us? We dont have Grade Lab water to mix our salt with.

Starting TDS should be tested. I would say test mix at 1 hour, 12, hours, and 24 hours. That should be sufficient. Test for all the minerals mentioned above. Temp should be consistent through each batch.

Other then that lets get this test going!

I see what you're saying, but I'm forced to agree with the original suggestion mostly because I don't think it's unreasonable to ask -- shouldn't be too expensive or difficult to come by. The purpose of using a more pure water is to ensure that the results aren't tainted.

Here is an interesting link I found regarding distilled vs. deionized water:
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasc.../chem00223.htm

Admittedly I'm not a water engineer or physicist -- I honestly don't know if AWT's results could be adversely influenced by using RODI water instead of lab grade distilled water. (?)

Either way, TDS should be less than 1ppm IMO.

[SDguy]

I would simply ask what kind of water AWT has access to. Any sort of lab should have good quality DI water available to it. It doesn't have to be milli-Q water or anything that pure....

I would also ask what their capabilities are with respect to mixing up these volumes. I know in my labs at work mixing up 1 liter x 10 isn't really a big deal. Mixing up 10 gallons x 10 starts to suck, often requiring batches to be made at different times due to lack of mutiples of proper equipment (which may be unavoidable anyway) leading to variations in temp, atmosheric pressure, lag time, etc., etc.

[USC-fan]

lets make this really simple. As long as they use the same source of water it really shouldn't be a big deal. Most here just use a home ro/di or tap water.....

[MarineFishGuy]

I agree, consistency is the key.
The water should be from the same source.
Containers should be sterilized before each round of tests.
Ideally all of the salts should be tested at once to minimize atmospheric conditions influencing the tests.
Considering the difficulty in mixing up large volumes of Salt Water, I would not make it a requirement to use an entire bag at once.
Especially if several samples were going to be tested from each source.
For the results to be valid 3 samples of each salt should be tested.
Having a degree in Marine Science I am well aware of how easy it is to get erroneous results when performing tests like this, even in lab conditions.
The variation between the three samples should be reported and if one sample's result is suspect it should be re-tested.
I know some people said they don't care if these results are scientifically valid, but I bet people will treat them as such if they are reported on Reef Central and other sites.
Ken

[DrBegalke]

MarineFishGuy: I understand your point, but we would then be talking about 34 samples (17 salts tested, one from East, one from West Coast), each tested 3 times for a total of 102 analyses.

Just to do the initial analysis of 14 factors (not including SG, bromide, temp., pH, time to mix the salts, the cost of the salts, etc.) the retail cost of those analyses is over $3500!

This is not meant to be a study worthy of publication in a scientific journal. It is meant to be a study initiated by hobbyists which will yield data useful to us all and with accuracy far beyond the test kits that many of us use.

[DrBegalke]

Originally posted by Boomer

I know, it was jd and I tend to agree. We can not really be putting to many constraints on them, which is what I think we were starting to do.

Agreed. Also, you'll be happy to hear:

"We can test for Bromide via an ion selective electrode so that is not a problem.... Outside of mass spectrophotometry, there exist inherent limitations to the involved chemistry. Ion selective probes can be susceptible to interferences from other ions. This can be mitigated to varying degrees mathematically given known affinities. For the purposes of yielding meaningful results for aquarists, with levels of accuracy and access to parameters they could otherwise not attain, this is perfect. Compare these results with those from a mass spec and you would expose some of these limitations but at a cost that is absolutely prohibitive. This is the basis of our business model. We are offering this survey within the framework of our strengths as technicians and the inherent limitations of the technology being applied. We are offering it as a service, a token of reciprocated support, for the many hobbyists within your community that have made us a success." -from http://aquariumwatertesting.com/

[jamesdawson]

I think we are starting to see how anal us reefers can be (I've been guilty of it too before).

Being that this testing is being done for free, we should just send them the salt and they will do the job and it will give us some very useful info and that should make us all happy.

James

[Boomer]

Dr

Buddy

[HowardW]

<<< This is not meant to be a study worthy of publication in a scientific journal. It is meant to be a study initiated by hobbyists which will yield data useful to us all and with accuracy far beyond the test kits that many of us use. >>>



Agreed and well said!

[DrBegalke]

Originally posted by Boomer
Dr

Buddy

Thanks! At this stage just waiting to hear back from AWT regarding the specifics on how they plan to mix the salt, etc.

[DrBegalke]

Originally posted by HowardW
<<< This is not meant to be a study worthy of publication in a scientific journal. It is meant to be a study initiated by hobbyists which will yield data useful to us all and with accuracy far beyond the test kits that many of us use. >>>



Agreed and well said!

Thanks Howard!

[DrBegalke]

OK, next question.

We can use hobbyist grade RO/DI water (from a hobbyist level unit), or lab grade distilled water to make the samples.

I think lab grade water would be the best choice, but thought I would ask the group...