Holy LED light Hood Batman. Solaris.

[galore]

Originally posted by BeanAnimal
A simple switch mode PSU will not give you the efficiency that you need. You will need a pure current source. To gain the spectral adjustment you will need to develop a way to vary the outputs of the individual LEDs or banks of LEDs.

Yes in theory it is a simple project. In reality you will have a small fortune tied up in one off or small run productions.

You make it sound as if it is rocket science to develop a current supply. This is electronics basics 101.

[SWSaltwater]

Lol Impossible energy savings. Man I guess my electric company is joking with me and i will get the rest of the bill later..........

[SWSaltwater]

Galore, making a one off if not all that impossible or hard. But properly making a professional product with proper R&D and beta testing can take months even years. I heard rumors of the Solaris long before it came out. I think I called and asked Pat to make a waiting list for me 6 month proir to it coming out. In fact I let my tank cycle light free for 4 months..........

[ycnibrc]

How long is the LED light will last?And how do you replace the light?

[burton14e7]

I read awhile ago, somebody on RC did the math, that to save money from running LED over MH you would have to be running LEDS for four years. Thats a long time to be upside down in a hobby where people buy new toys and tanks all the time.

[roblack]

Bean animal, you really seem to have a negative attitude. Maybe some people do care that I purchased my unit and love it. You are quite amusing.

[Philwd]

How long is the LED light will last?

Typically LED manufacturers(not the fixture manufacturers like PFO) rate LEDs for 50% degradation or loss of light output. We are more interested in the 30% or less numbers. That number depends first order on how hot the LEDs get or in more technical terms the junction temperature. This in turn is highly dependant on how well the LEDs are packaged and mounted, heat dissipation on the boards and how well the unit is ventilated. The numbers that Chris from AI quoted that they keep the junction temperatures to below 45C is a fantastic accomplishment and leads to very long LED lifetime. I found some curves on the LEDs AI uses and can show you what the temperature does to lifetime. I'll post them later.

Both AI and PFO have either on their websites or in earlier posts said the banks of LEDs are modular and can be easily replaced. The cost for doing so in the future is not known.

[pjf]

Originally posted by ycnibrc
How long is the LED light will last?And how do you replace the light?

Both PFO and AI claim that their LEDs will last 50,000 hours.

I'm not sure how an LED is replaced but JL Aquatics says this about the PFO Galileo fixture (http://www.jlaquatics.com/phpstore/s..._ID=pfo-s67305): "Each LED is independantly mounted for ease of replacement or upgrade if necessary." AI says its LED fixtures are modular and upgradeable (http://www.aquaillumination.com/upgrade.html).

[GSMguy]

Why do you all think Bean Animal even bothers to post in these threads??

he is only looking out for reefeers whom might be imagining amazing energy savings from this LED light. He only wants the Solaris to be compared to its competition based on fact, and not a an energy savings unreality.

If anybody should be attacked its the vendor whom has not payed to be a RC sponser, who uses these threads to sell preorders on untested lights...

the last release of "400w" solaris was wrought with problems, why should the next gen be any better...

[GSMguy]

DP

[GSMguy]

Originally posted by SWSaltwater
Lol Impossible energy savings. Man I guess my electric company is joking with me and i will get the rest of the bill later..........

You use them on one tank, and have multiple tanks running MH, and you have zero edge tanks that use huge pumps to keep the overflow going. I also imagine your using Air conditioning and chillers..........

what math did you use to find these savings?

[pjf]

Originally posted by BeanAnimal

1) Show us where LEDs are more efficient than T5 or MH.
2) Show us where the savings can be realized over a feature comparable MH or T5 setup.
3) Show us where the major MH and T5 manufacturers are going broke because nobody wants their fixtures.
4) Show us where R&D and manufacturing costs for LED fixtures are dropping and how that is going to get passed on to the reef hobby.

(1) Dana Riddle's review (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/10/review/view) shows that the AI fixture produces more PUR with less energy consumption than a MH lamp.

(2) A feature-comparable MH setup is the Sfigiloi ACLS (http://www.aquariumobsessed.com/mm5/...ry_Code=SFACLS). Two 250-watt ACLS dimming modules (2x$1100) plus a 2x250 XR6 MH pendant ($2600) costs $4800. In contrast, the highest priced AI and Solaris fixtures cost $3660 and $4012 respectively.

(3) I'm not sure if Sfiligoi is going broke but I there are fewer aquarists that can afford its dimmable fixtures.

(4) I bought an LED fixture for my refugium for about $100, had it tested by Sanjay, and sold it for $50 to another Reef Central member. The shipping damage of $50 was also passed on to the buyer who essentially received a free fixture with cosmetic damage. The cost savings would have been passed on to you had you spoken up in time.

[galore]

Originally posted by SWSaltwater
Galore, making a one off if not all that impossible or hard. But properly making a professional product with proper R&D and beta testing can take months even years. I heard rumors of the Solaris long before it came out. I think I called and asked Pat to make a waiting list for me 6 month proir to it coming out. In fact I let my tank cycle light free for 4 months..........

No disagreement here. And I understand that the volumes require those margins at the moment. I guess my point was that the material cost isn't that high, which makes it very possible for the price to drop. LEDs are cheap and the rest isn't diamonds-rare/expensive either.

BTW, the 50000 hours life rating probably doesn't originate from the fixture manufacturer but from the LED datasheet. E.g. Luxeon K2s are rated 50000 hours at 1A with 70% lumen maintenance. Fairly standard for high intensity LEDs.

[BeanAnimal]

Originally posted by galore
You make it sound as if it is rocket science to develop a current supply. This is electronics basics 101.

Car tires are synthetic rubber. Basic chem 101.

Nobody said it was rocket science. On the other hand efficient pure current source dimmable drivers are not trivial to design well for they average hobbiest.

Let me put this another way. If YOU think that these units are so trivial to build, then start building them and selling them.

You simply need

1) Suitable housing
2) Properly binned LEDs
3) PCB or other suitable heatsink and substrate
4) Lenses
5) Efficient current source
6) logic to control dimming and spectral output

Don't forget a good soldering iron and a well stocked parts bin. IC sockets? Breadboards? Bench supply? Testing equipment? Or wait are you just going to point to point wire one of these without any testing?

No they are not rocket science but they are also not trivial electronics projects. The theory and basic circuit parameters are easy to come up with.

A 2kW home theater amp with 7 channel output is also a rather trivial circuit. Pile a bunch of emitter follower high current transistors in series/parallel combinations and add 100 pounds of aluminum heatsink and a few huge toroids and your in business. They may have $300 worth of parts in them. Lets see you build one for that.

[BeanAnimal]

Originally posted by SWSaltwater
Lol Impossible energy savings. Man I guess my electric company is joking with me and i will get the rest of the bill later..........

I am sorry, but I honestly can not take your posts seriously. Your here to sell SOLARIS fixtures, nor more no less. You shill for a product that you directly sell. You take every opportunity you can to point that out in a subtle way. If you ask me, your posts should be moderated, but it is not up to me. The other resellers that frequent this forum follow the rules, maybe you should also.

We have been through the energy usage here and in a dozen other threads. If you have a specific scenerios to examine, then please post it. If you have a point to make then please post it. If you are just trying to discredit me with nonsense, then please rethink your arguement.

In the past we have looked at the THEN shipping SOLARIS fixtures and I (and others) have shown that the reported energy savings by you and others are simply impossible. We can certainly revisit these numbers if you wish.

[BeanAnimal]

Originally posted by roblack
Bean animal, you really seem to have a negative attitude. Maybe some people do care that I purchased my unit and love it. You are quite amusing.

No, I don't have a negative attitude. I simply like to speak in facts, not repeat hyped up sales literature and misinformed lore.

The AI and new SOLARIS fixture look promising. The next generation will be even better. That is fact. If you are happy with your fixture then great. If people are happy for you, then great. That makes a bunch of happy people about a single fixture. That does not make your fixture or its operating parameterts any better or any worse, regardless of what you or others may think.

[BeanAnimal]

Originally posted by pjf
(1) Dana Riddle's review (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/10/review/view) shows that the AI fixture produces more PUR with less energy consumption than a MH lamp.

Yes the units are not bad. I can not wait to see the reviews from the folks who get ahold of the first runs. But now we are just looking at PUR again huh? And once again we need to consider the MH lamp and reflector being used for the study.

(2) A feature-comparable MH setup is the Sfigiloi ACLS (http://www.aquariumobsessed.com/mm5/...ry_Code=SFACLS). Two 250-watt ACLS dimming modules (2x$1100) plus a 2x250 XR6 MH pendant ($2600) costs $4800. In contrast, the highest priced AI and Solaris fixtures cost $3660 and $4012 respectively.

Yes and the Sfigiloi will have a signifacntly higher output than the PFO parallel reflector and a XM 20,000K bulb.

This brings us back to more money for less light. Why not just buy less MH!

(3) I'm not sure if Sfiligoi is going broke but I there are fewer aquarists that can afford its dimmable fixtures.

They will not go broke for a long time. Again, the LED fixtures have a good way to go before they are more efficient than a high end MH setup. [/b][/quote]

(4) I bought an LED fixture for my refugium for about $100, had it tested by Sanjay, and sold it for $50 to another Reef Central member. The shipping damage of $50 was also passed on to the buyer who essentially received a free fixture with cosmetic damage. The cost savings would have been passed on to you had you spoken up in time. [/B][/QUOTE] Ahh put my tickets in the 4' SOLARIS raffle at MACNA. They puppy was going straight onto the refugium if I won it. Mostly just so I could send a photo to PAT to see the look on his face

The AI fixture and new SOLARIS are certainly a big step forward. I would assume that a new generation of LEDs will hit the production line by the time these are shipping and the whole process will start over.

The question then becomes when the fixtures DO become more efficient than MH or T5: Who is going to pay for relamping and what does that do to the payoff period!

[pjf]

Despite the complex physics behind LED technology, manufacturers are openly publishing their interface specifications to assist lighting integrators. This “plug & play” philosophy helps to expedite LED technologies into the mainstream. This is akin to building a PC. While PC’s are very complex, it is nevertheless “plug & play.”

In contrast, the manufacturers of dimmable fluorescent and metal halide technologies follow a proprietary business model. While the technology is arguably simpler, this industry has never embraced openness and that has made all the difference.

All of the problems that we have alluded to in this thread have been solved by those who have integrated LEDs into aquarium heaters, controllers, moonlights, and main lights. If anyone thinks these problems have not been completely solved, look upon that as an opportunity. There is room for a “better mousetrap.”

[BeanAnimal]

Originally posted by pjf
Despite the complex physics behind LED technology, manufacturers are openly publishing their interface specifications to assist lighting integrators. This “plug & play” philosophy helps to expedite LED technologies into the mainstream. This is akin to building a PC. While PC’s are very complex, it is nevertheless “plug & play.”

More drivel from a technical white paper. Interface specifications? They are pure current devices. There are no interface specifications! You supply a voltage and they consume current until they fry. You limit current and they are happy. You supply a fixed current and they consume voltage and are happy... ohms law is the interface specification!

In contrast, the manufacturers of dimmable fluorescent and metal halide technologies follow a proprietary business model. While the technology is arguably simpler, this industry has never embraced openness and that has made all the difference.

Nonsense. Commercial dimmable MH and fluorescent ballasts are 0-10v dimmable. It is an industry standard.

I love how you google for technical white papers and then post them in bits and pieces here to bolster your point. Did you ever stop to think that most of that stuff is a SALES TOOL and worded as such? It is designed to get non techioes ooing and awwing over basic reality. They are the same folks that call your bathtubs overflow spout an "automated fluid level controller" that will prevent unwanted hydration of your interior substrate.

All of the problems that we have alluded to in this thread have been solved by those who have integrated LEDs into aquarium heaters, controllers, moonlights, and main lights. If anyone thinks these problems have not been completely solved, look upon that as an opportunity. There is room for a “better mousetrap.”

Heh? We have been using LEDs since the 1960s. There is a fairly large difference between a 5mm LED used as an indicator and a high lumen LED used for prime lighting. The "PROBLEMS" that are being worked out are the die size and heatsinking requirments. The problems being worked out are the contaminants in the manufacturing process and the quality control. The problems being worked out are how to overdirve the units to be more efficient than current lighting technologies and at the same time provide a useful spectral outpout and lifespan. This has NOTHING to do with aquarium heaters, controllers, moonlights etc.

You make me dizzy with these posts They are all fluff with a catchy bolded titles You don't happen to be a technical writer for sales white papers do you?

[roblack]

BA, you wrote, "More to the point. We don't care that your purchased the unit, or that you love it."

Sounds pretty negative to me. Sharing information is what RC is all about, and how new technology performs for those who actually have it is of interest to others. I have both MHs and LEDS running, so perhaps my opinion and experience matters, obviously not to you. "BA", kinda fits doesn't it. LOL!

[BeanAnimal]

Maybe a little trouble with context roback?

I am not sure this even warrants a response but I will certainly try to help you along...

you said:

Why are people (You know who you are are) so upset about others being happy about their LEDs? Relax, sit back, have a beer or whatever and enjoy your tank.

I directly responded:

The question would be better asked:

"Why are people (You know who you are) so upset about others being adamant that the LED discussion are kept in the realm of fact and reality, not misinformation and urban myth.

More to the point. We don't care that your purchased the unit, or that you love it. [sic] "We care about the straight facts."

Do you see the context yet? You lumped people into a group and directly called them upset about others happiness. I responded by saying, our posts are NOT about the status of YOUR happiness. They are instead about the facts regarding these products. The "WE" in my post referred directly to the "Why are people (You know who you are)" group pointed out in your post.

You then replied:

Bean animal, you really seem to have a negative attitude. Maybe some people do care that I purchased my unit and love it. You are quite amusing

I think you have the tense wrong. I am not amusing, I am amused, amused that you are trying to pick a fight with me and don't even understand the context of my reply to your assertion that I am unhappy with you or other happy LED owners. Your status as an LED owner has ZERO to do with points being made here. I am happy with my 1983 Seas 20" 10-Speed bicycle. Shall I call you negative if you were to explain that it is deficient compared to another brand or style of bicycle?

What exactly is your point? Are you upset because I don't like the product you purchased? Are you upset because I don't agree with the all of the sales points that went along with the product you purchased? Are you upset because you don't like me? What exactly are you trying to say? Your comments don't make sense in the context of the thread and appear nothing more than an attempt to take a shot people who for one reason or another have questions or issues with LED lighting technology or the companies that sell it.

Lets make it simple. You came into the room and accused people of being upset because other people were happy. That is silly and does not match the context of the conversation here. Need we (I) say anything more on this subject?

[BeanAnimal]

Philwd

which data sheets are you looking at? Can you post the link please.

[pjf]

Originally posted by BeanAnimal
Nonsense. Commercial dimmable MH and fluorescent ballasts are 0-10v dimmable. It is an industry standard.

The Sfiligoi ACLS does not use the 0-10v standard. It uses pulse-width modulation (PWM). Here is a supporting website: http://www.aquariumobsessed.com/. The ACLS description refers to a 250Hz square wave used to modulate the light output: "The electronic dimmer keeps the light flow extremely stable to avoid flickering problems of exhausted lights (250 Hz using squared wave)."

[BeanAnimal]

What you you trying to compre PJF?

Are we talking about commercial lighting or are we talking about the niche market of aquarium lighting? The sfiligoi is not a commercial lighting product. It is an expensive niche product for a small market.

You titled your post OPENNESS and attemped to show that MH and FLUORESCENT technologies are only dimmable via proprietary closed products. That is nonsense. I am dimming my T5 actinics with an OFF-THE-SHELF industry standard 0-10V dimmable T5 ballast. Units (albiet expensive) are made for MH also. My ballast is an ADVANCE MARK IV and costs about $125. Any commercial 0-10V dimmer or logic box will work, as well as home brew logic.

Now please show me where you can DIM or control the SOLARIS, AI or any other LED aquarium light with an industry standard 0-10V dimmer or logic. Ohh wait you can't! The SOLARIS has a proprietary built in dimming function as does the AI. Both BTW are likely PWM.

Do you honestly understand ballasts and dimming? Do you honestly understand Pulse Width Modulation? From the context of your remark and the text you pasted in, that does not appear to be the case.

Lets be very clear here. The 0-10V is the control signal. The "dimmer" uses that signal to dim the lights. That (the actual dimming) could be via PWM, Phase Control (chopping), etc and is besise the point here.

To be even clearer: There are DIGITAL dimming standards and ballasts that use those standards. Dimming digital ballast are made for MH and FLUORESCENT as well as other lighting technologies. One such standard is DALI.

Does the AI or SOLARIS support analog (0-10V) or digital (DALI) dimming? No? Then where is the openess?

Can you pluck the bulbs from the AI and drop them into the SOLARIS? Where is the openness?

Lets take this a step further. ANY MH or FLUORESCENT fixture consists of a BULB a BALLAST and possibly LOGIC. The ballast can be replaced with a dimmable unit and controlled with standard equipment. The bulbs can be exchanged with other units.

An LED fixture consists of LEDs, LED DRIVERS, and integrated LOGIC to run the driver. Unless the manufacturer builds in a 0-10V or DALI port, then the unit can ONLY be controlled via the proprietary dimmer. The end user can not "swap" anything out and DIY a dimmer because the DRIVER and DIMMER are integrated. You can't buy an off the shelf "led driver" to drop into your AI or SOLARIS to gian control the way YOU want it.

Do you honestly see "LED" arrays becoming standardized so that each aquarium hood manufacturer can just drop the LED arrays onto their own driver boards? I certainly would rail against it if I were trying to corner the market.

So exactly the opposite of what you cut and pasted is true.

Like I said, you keep posting these snippets and bullet points but they make no sense. Can we PLEASE dispense with the googled remarks now?

[roblack]

LOL!