Noobs!!

[Paul B]

I was lucky when I started with salt because there was no advice.
It was very easy because I knew that everything I was doing was wrong
There were no "experts" no books no computers and no advice. I did everything by trial and error, mostly error but when we learned something (and it took a long time) we learned why we learned it and we discovered many ways of not to do something.
You would be amazed of the enormosity of information that I know that is wrong
I rarely give information to noobs about how to set up a tank because I don't feel I am the correct person for that. You can not set up a tank like mine since it took many years to evovlve and I am not sure you should. I also don't give advice about brands of equipment because I don't own any commercially built equipment.
I do remember when just about all of the aquarium equipment became available and I have used a good portion of it. I have always reverted back to my own ancient technology.
I have been reading all of the aquarium magazines and still have copies of "The Marine Aquarist" which was printed in black and white in the sixtees. I also remember when all the "Experts" became experts.
There is still advice given that I know is wrong but it is so prevelent that it is taken as fact now like using cleaner shrimp to cure ich. Or lettuce nudibranchs for hair algae. There is no such thing as a lettuce nudibranch (they are slugs).
The discussions about what size tank you need for certain fish are always entertaining as well as the natural sea water posts.
Anyway I find that the vast majority of hobbiests here are helpful, knowledgable and really try to help noobs.

As for people flaming me, it gives me goose bumps
Have a great day.
Paul

[dc]

LOL, you are really old!

[plandy]

Here's my input as a certified expert in nothing The responsibility of discerning between good and bad advice rests completely on "you" the "educated" hobbist

Before you begin and come on here asking question you should have done your home work reading up on everything pertaining to the husbandry of reef techniques If you don't then you are a sitting duck & sucker in waiting for every bad advice out there because you couldn't tell the difference anyway until the truth crashed on you.

So stop shifting blame around and take a good long look at your mirror's reflection. There's no short cuts to proper research and education. Forums are just that, where people exchange ideas and advice without any guarantees. The responsibility to execute on any given information are totally yours.

Speaking of experts...I have read and taken quiet a few bad and even disasterous advices from them. But ultimately it was my fault for choosing the wrong options. Reminds you of losing points on a school exam for picking the wrong choices eh?

[Peter Eichler]

Originally posted by plandy
Here's my input as a certified expert in nothing The responsibility of discerning between good and bad advice rests completely on "you" the "educated" hobbist

Before you begin and come on here asking question you should have done your home work reading up on everything pertaining to the husbandry of reef techniques If you don't then you are a sitting duck & sucker in waiting for every bad advice out there because you couldn't tell the difference anyway until the truth crashed on you.

So stop shifting blame around and take a good long look at your mirror's reflection. There's no short cuts to proper research and education. Forums are just that, where people exchange ideas and advice without any guarantees. The responsibility to execute on any given information are totally yours.

Speaking of experts...I have read and taken quiet a few bad and even disasterous advices from them. But ultimately it was my fault for choosing the wrong options. Reminds you of losing points on a school exam for picking the wrong choices eh?

Just curious, what advice have you gotten from the "experts" that was "bad" or "disasterous"?

[dcombs44]

Originally posted by Zann
i am a noob i will admit.
but i can also learn things very fast.
for one i have seen that with all the experts out there theres a hundred differant ways of doing things .
i have gave advice to some new people out there because others havent bothered to post in there thread.
but i only give what i have learned and read .
i read these forums everyday and i look up stuff everyday .
for the most part alot of the people give good infoe.
but what gets me is someone comeing into a thread for example

someone whats to know about a skimmer and say they got a coral life supper skimmer.
then someone comes in and says thats not a good skimmer you need to get a bubbleking or somehting like that.
for one i cant aford a bubble king or some of the other top name skimmers.
alot of the noobs cant afford them either so they have to get what they can .
i have a supper skimmer i dont have a problem with it, it works fine.
dont like the way it looks in the tank but hey untill i can get a sump or something to put it in then it will have to do .
but this happens all the time people putting down stuff that might be cheaper but works . and telling a noob they need to get all this top of the line equipment.
There are some out there that understand and tell a noob that what they have is fine and how to mod it to make it better .
now to me thats someone that helps someone who knows how to get by with what they got and tell others how to .
my reef is doing fine with the canister filter and supperskimmer i have on it.
i do everything manually i have no top off or dosers or reactors.
so if i sugest to someone who ask about what to do i can tell them what i have done . and i guess that makes me wrong and giveing bad advice. well get off you high horse and look at some advice you might have given int eh past im sure you have been wrong on more then once.

I really don't think that anybody in this thread is on a high horse, and nobody here has claimed to be perfect. It's been mentioned several times that many different methods will work in this hobby, and many people start with a system that is far from automated. That angle hasn't really been one that's been viewed in this thread. Although, probably 80% or more people here would probably say that there are better methods than using a canister filter, there are ways to turn a canister into a useful tool if that's all you have to work with. To be honest though, you can build a 10 or 20 gallon sump with a decent pump for around the same price that you can buy some canister filters. I think most people would be simply suggesting the sump over the canister simply for water volume if nothing else, which I don't think anyone would argue that the more water the better. IMHO.

[Peter Eichler]

Originally posted by dcombs44
I really don't think that anybody in this thread is on a high horse, and nobody here has claimed to be perfect. It's been mentioned several times that many different methods will work in this hobby, and many people start with a system that is far from automated. That angle hasn't really been one that's been viewed in this thread. Although, probably 80% or more people here would probably say that there are better methods than using a canister filter, there are ways to turn a canister into a useful tool if that's all you have to work with. To be honest though, you can build a 10 or 20 gallon sump with a decent pump for around the same price that you can buy some canister filters. I think most people would be simply suggesting the sump over the canister simply for water volume if nothing else, which I don't think anyone would argue that the more water the better. IMHO.

If I had a high horse I think I would be perfect.

[Travis L. Stevens]

plandy: I agree and disagree. Yes, I agree that the new aquarist should do research. But sometimes using Reef Central to get a nudge in the right direction is needed. So, I disagree that a new hobbyist should have read and researched a lot before coming on here is completely necessary (though it would be an ideal world)

Zann: I completely agree there. I see it far too often. If I have the time, I try to jump in and state other methods that work as well so the person with the question has more than one option than dropping $2000 on a skimmer. I, too, choose to do things manually in my tank. I've had enough opportunities to completely automate my tank, but I chose not to. There's more to learn from getting your hands dirty than there is to let it sit and grow.

[plandy]

Originally posted by Peter Eichler
Just curious, what advice have you gotten from the "experts" that was "bad" or "disasterous"?

Peter, my favorite, but old, was the "under gravel filter". Which in essence is nothing more than an "in-tank" septic system spewing tons of nitrates around the clock. There are a few others which I am reluctant to discuss because the source of the bad advice will become apparent. However, a lot of these experts also dispense many valuable and helpful advices. So things have a way of ballancing out. The forums offer a wide range of excellent guidance with a few errantly placed "bombs".

Another, currently, widely spread bad advice is the application of Kalkwasser. All too many speak about topping up evaporated tank water with kalked water. Loosely interpreted this can spell disaster in a nano tank and even in medium sized tank. Improperly used it can raise PH and Calc through the roof in short order. I don't raise SPS corals so my reef will not benefit from a constant refill of kalked water. This is just one example of why people need to read and research so they can distinguish issues between lines of well meaning advices. Not every advice will work for everbody with good results.

Then there are advices given which are actually superb but omits one or two important steps with severe consequences. <--This happens all too many times! For example people often advise metal halide lamps for better results. What they forget to tell you, and this has to be repeated every single time. If you are converting/adding metal halide, especially with softies, begin with at least two feet above the tank Then slowly bring it down to whatever length it appears to work for you.

[dcombs44]

It's almost like they've been doing it for so long, they forget the small stuff. Kind of like that college professor that was too smart to teach the class because he couldn't dumb himself down to the level of the students.

[plandy]

Originally posted by Travis L. Stevens
plandy: I agree and disagree. Yes, I agree that the new aquarist should do research. But sometimes using Reef Central to get a nudge in the right direction is needed. So, I disagree that a new hobbyist should have read and researched a lot before coming on here is completely necessary (though it would be an ideal world)

Travis, assuming for a moment that you're 100% correct. It would require ReefCentral and other forums to lock down and narrow the posting regulations: Everyone can post questions but only "experts" are allowed to respond because we know they never make mistakes right? Now for the easy part...to determine exactly who those experts are

[Travis L. Stevens]

You have me a little confused there, Peter. Why would only experts need to respond. It goes right back to getting opinions of everyone, experts or not, and allowing the person asking the question to take those replies and research which one is the best method for them.

[plandy]

Originally posted by Travis L. Stevens
You have me a little confused there, Peter. Why would only experts need to respond. It goes right back to getting opinions of everyone, experts or not, and allowing the person asking the question to take those replies and research which one is the best method for them.

Travis, opps I was referring to the poster who started this thread. Who in effect was saying that only "knowledgeable" people with expertise should respond to posted questions. Otherwise the wrong answer will trip a "noob" up.

So it appears you and I agree after all.

Indeed forums are excellent place for noobs to learn the ways of reef keeping. They just have to be aware & beware. Like what's good for an SPS tank can outright kill a softie tank. And begin with a basic foundation of one or two good books on keeping reefs.

[Travis L. Stevens]

No problem, Peter. It makes sense now

[dcombs44]

Originally posted by plandy
Travis, opps I was referring to the poster who started this thread. Who in effect was saying that only "knowledgeable" people with expertise should respond to posted questions. Otherwise the wrong answer will trip a "noob" up.

So it appears you and I agree after all.

Indeed forums are excellent place for noobs to learn the ways of reef keeping. They just have to be aware & beware. Like what's good for an SPS tank can outright kill a softie tank. And begin with a basic foundation of one or two good books on keeping reefs.

In that case I suppose that I'd better chime in. I never said that only experienced reefers should reply. I simply made the suggestion that if you're not sure it's a fact to make that known or don't reply. Don't make something seem factual if you're not sure it's a fact. Geeesh.

[Peter Eichler]

I still suggest people new to the hobby buy a good book or four, but you don't see a whole lot of other people doing it. Forums and the internet has gotten so mainstream that many people rely on it for all their info. I think that's one of the big reasons why why have such a wealth of bad info floating around. However, it also means we have a wealth of good info at out finger tips.

[dcombs44]

Please read the second paragraph in reference to my last post. I never said that anyone shouldn't post. I am not an RC God. That chore rests on DC's shoulders.

Originally posted by dcombs44
This is just me making an observation, but................
I notice when skimming through the forums (especially the "New to the Hobby" forum) that people with minimal experience and knowledge are giving people with the same minimal knowledge and experience some pretty crappy advice on what to do in certain situations. These are things that most experienced reefers would easily be able to tell someone not to do, but sometimes the damage is already done before the experienced guys can catch the thread.

I guess I just wanted to make this post to suggest.....If you're new, and you're not quite sure what you're doing just yet, don't offer advice unless you put a disclaimer on it that it may not be the best advice.

Don't get me wrong, all of us have different methods, many work, many don't, but when I read all of these posts about people telling others to dump chemicals in their tanks to clear this up or bring this down, it makes me kinda sick.

I guess it just seems odd to see someone that started their first tank yesterday telling a guy what to do with his 3 week old tank that's things keep dying in.

I'd appreciate some backup on this, as I know some of you have seen the same things, and have then had to try to help clean up the mess.

[Peter Eichler]

Originally posted by Travis L. Stevens
No problem, Peter. It makes sense now

Stop calling him Peter, I confuse easily!

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

Originally posted by dcombs44
This is just me making an observation
to suggest.....If you're new, and you're not quite sure what you're doing just yet, don't offer advice unless you put a disclaimer on it that it may not be the best advice.

Looks to me like he was saying if you don't know what you are talking about don't post to just post, at least not without saying this is just my opinion and i'm not 100% sure.
I too have many posts in my 2+ years on here....alot of them are from continuing threads and many are also from the same questions posted daily numerous times that I answer because many see the thread title and sigh that it's being asked again.
That said, I am by NO MEANS anywhere even close to an 'expert'.
But I do have a general knowledge on some of the commonalities in reef keeping.

I agree with everyone post accordingly and the truth will filter out like waste into a skimmer cup

Happy Reefing!

[SDguy]

Originally posted by Peter Eichler
Stop calling him Peter, I confuse easily!

What he said...

[dcombs44]

Originally posted by E-A-G-L-E-S
Looks to me like he was saying if you don't know what you are talking about don't post to just post, at least not without saying this is just my opinion and i'm not 100% sure.
I too have many posts in my 2+ years on here....alot of them are from continuing threads and many are also from the same questions posted daily numerous times that I answer because many see the thread title and sigh that it's being asked again.
That said, I am by NO MEANS anywhere even close to an 'expert'.
But I do have a general knowledge on some of the commonalities in reef keeping.

I agree with everyone post accordingly and the truth will filter out like waste into a skimmer cup

Happy Reefing!

Thank you!!!

and is it just me, or is this starting to feel like a room full of Peter's??

[plandy]

Originally posted by Peter Eichler
Stop calling him Peter, I confuse easily!

Peter, since I acknowledge your skill and experience with reefs. Wish my tank looked as nice as yours. We'll refer to you as Peter the Great and me just plain Peter

[SDguy]

Originally posted by Peter Eichler
Just curious, what advice have you gotten from the "experts" that was "bad" or "disasterous"?

I too would be curious to hear what sorts of info people have received personally or seen given that was truly horrible/disasterous. I think my worst was someone telling me that a Berlic Classic skimmer was a good choice

Bad advice that I've given: Actinics with phoenix bulbs are redundant. Someone pointed out to me that this is wrong, they have different nm peaks. I said oh, thanks, didn't know that. My bad.

[plandy]

Originally posted by dcombs44
In that case I suppose that I'd better chime in. I never said that only experienced reefers should reply. I simply made the suggestion that if you're not sure it's a fact to make that known or don't reply. Don't make something seem factual if you're not sure it's a fact. Geeesh.

Ok...but you have to admit that, long ago, under gravel filters were the state of the arts and very factual. Who is to say what will happen in the future with our current facts?

[dcombs44]

Paul still uses an under gravel (reverse) filter

[silverwolf72]

What in this hobby can anyone say that they are 100% sure about?! One day something is the best thing for your tank next day it's OMG don't do that you'll kill your whole tank!