DSB in a bucket for nitrate control

[supereri]

Originally posted by grochmal
Are you talking about a flow-through sand bed filter?
That is not the type we are using here, but rather the water flows over top of the sand and the nitrate diffuses down to the deeper areas of the sand bed.
You won't be able to detect any difference in nitrate level between the water entering the bucket and leaving.
It passes through the bucket too quickly.
We want the water to flow quickly so that detritus doesn't settle on the top of the sand.

Is the point that the nitrate reduction will be a gradual process thus no dectectable difference is immediately apparent?

Also due to space contraints I am considering a rectangular container. It's measurements are 18x4x18 (all measurements in inches) total capacity of 6 gallons. It looks like this will proved about 2/3's the surface area of a 5 gallon bucket. Will this provide enough surface area to be effective? This will be on a 72 gallon reef tank that has a few fish.

Also is Polyethylene safe for this use?

[Alfinus]

I have built numerous denitrifiers from coils to sand in the bucket methods of all types. To understand how they work you need to understand the bacteria. Anerobic bacteria do not consume nitrates as a food, but as an oxygen source. These bacteria evolved in a low oxygen envoriment, so through time they devoloped the means to extract oxygen from nitrates and producing the by-product of nitrogen gas. Even tho they need nitrate to lived they also need a food source, some type of carbon fuel. Thats my I always had better results with the bucket method if you could at least have a drip trickle coming out the bottom. I understand about over complicating, but even tho the nitrates will diffuse through the sand over time, organic carbons don't diffuse as easy and need some a little push through the sand. And btw the trickle will not effect anything as the areobic bacteria always are in the top couple inches and as they consume food they will consume all oxygen. Thats also why you need a little trickle because the anerobic will also comsume all the carbon food too, before the anerobic can. I am not saying the simply flow over method will not work, just a way to make it work better.
Even tho I have not tried it yet, vodka dosing at very small amounts over the rdsb should kick it into high gear also, since vodka is a high carbon food source.

[bguile]

so are you suggesting to poke a small hole in the bottom of the bucket?? This obviously then would HAVE to go inside the sump unless you plumb it somehow.

Also, I'm looking to start mine within the next week. Should I put water in the bucket first, then add sand and remove water as necessary? Or fill the bucket with sand first then add water? With the latter, wouldn't I continually need to add water to the system until the entire DSB in the bucket is saturated?

[scrager]

did you really just ask that question?

[bguile]

uh....yeah...duh! I asked several. Anyone with a reply that can help?

[scrager]

i was refering to this question: Also, I'm looking to start mine within the next week. Should I put water in the bucket first, then add sand and remove water as necessary? Or fill the bucket with sand first then add water? With the latter, wouldn't I continually need to add water to the system until the entire DSB in the bucket is saturated?


i mean do you really think it matters what order you add the sand and the water? sand in bucket and pump water over it. eventually the entire bucket will become saturated. this isn't rocket science.

[DgenR8]

[chimp]
Thirty seven pages without one..............

[flamealert]

[a4twenty]

Originally posted by bguile
uh....yeah...duh! I asked several. Anyone with a reply that can help?

plumb your RDSB, wash your sand thoroughly, place it in the bucket and turn on the water. the rest will be taken care of for you.

and scrager yes, i think it does make a difference. if you filled it with water first then added the sand you would get a nasty dust storm, but thats just my opinion.

[Savatage]

Well, here's my opinion.

DgenR8 said it plain as day.........we aren't little kids anymore so we should act like civilized adults.
What is this, we learn all this amazing stuff and act so responsible and work so hard to be so professional with our Miniature Oceans we keep in our homes, but when it comes to disagreeing with something, people act like kids.

Remember, we are only here to learn from each other, give new ideas, and some people here are starting out and need to learn.

BGUILE: You don't want to add the sand to the water. This could be very harmful to your system. For one you have no info on your current tanks or experience, so I would assume you might be new to the trade. Adding water to the sand will break it loose and it will have some that floats just long enopugh to get caught up in your pumps and possible ruin them.

Put your sand in the bucket, and slowly fill it with water. The dust storm will happen once the water reaches to surface of the sand, so if you want to fill the bucket fast, only do that until the water gets to the level of the sand, the rest you want to ad slowly.

Here is another thing to conside. When you turn in the system and the bucket is going to drain to the sump, grab something to use as a filter (like a cloth) and hold it by the drain for a few minutes. The movement of the water, in the bucket, may kick up a little sand.

[Savatage]

Now I have a question. How exactly does one clean sand????? How do you clean sand without losing it all?????

The only answer I come up with is to put it in a pillow case and spray the crap out of it with the hose. LOL.

[bguile]

Thanks a4twenty, thats pretty much what I was looking for, just an opinion.

I had read previously someone that said you shouldn't wash your sand because you loose microscopic "stuff" thats good for a DSB particularly when using argonite sand. I also thought that it would take days for the water to reach the bottom if I just put it in totally dry. But thanks, I'll rinse it lightly that way the bottom sand is at least wet and will keep out air bubbles.

[bguile]

Originally posted by Savatage
...For one you have no info on your current tanks or experience, so I would assume you might be new to the trade.

Looks like we were posting around the same time. Thanks for your insight. I am not NEW to the hobby, but I always consider myself learning and ask questions for understanding. You never know when someone may have a better way of doing something rather just doing it b/c it's the only way you know. I have just downgraded from a 90G reef to 40G. The prev tank was established for 1.5 years. It had a DSB in it, but moving to a smaller tank I just kept the live sand from the top of the bed and dumped the rest.

to answer your question, I think probably the BEST way to wash the sand is to put some in a bucket with water, mix it up, then wait for all the sand to settle on the bottom and siphon or pour the water on top out. That's how I've always done it haha. But seriously, when you have 120lbs of sand to put in a tank you don't want to be washing 10lbs at a time waiting. You just want to get it in there and move on to the fun stuff like rockscaping and adding fish!

[Savatage]

sounds like a plan

[Savatage]

PM'd you

[a4twenty]

Originally posted by bguile
I think probably the BEST way to wash the sand is to put some in a bucket with water, mix it up, then wait for all the sand to settle on the bottom and siphon or pour the water on top out. That's how I've always done it haha. But seriously, when you have 120lbs of sand to put in a tank you don't want to be washing 10lbs at a time waiting. You just want to get it in there and move on to the fun stuff like rockscaping and adding fish!

thats how i did the 200+ lbs in my system, it takes a long time but minimizes the amount of time your tank looks all white and cloudy. I just put about 10lbs in a bucket and fill it with water then stir and turn it by hand. when the run off water goes from milky white to just slightly cloudy your done. you have to change the water 5 or 6 times to get there, but i think it's worth it in the end. nothing comes easy in this hobby.

[DgenR8]

The tiny grains of sand that you lose when rinsing it are the most desirable grains for this purpose. I prefer not rinsing. It prolongs the "cloud" but is better in the long run.

[gotdibz]

is there another way to plumb this bucket with out using uniseals and bulkheads ( i understand this is the best way ) but its hard to get a hold of them locally . has anyone done it differently ?? and putting it in the sump is out the question not enough room

[reefer_rob]

Hi, I am looking to run one of these on my barebottom frag tank. My tank isnt drilled and I dont have a sump. Is there a way that I can still plumb in a RDSB?

Thanks, Rob

[psimitry]

Originally posted by reefer_rob
Hi, I am looking to run one of these on my barebottom frag tank. My tank isnt drilled and I dont have a sump. Is there a way that I can still plumb in a RDSB?

Thanks, Rob

The only way that I can see it working as described is if you elevate the bucket (or other container) to the level of the tank (or preferably above) and then use a powerhead or low-powered external pump to pump water to it. Gravity will naturally pull water back into the tank as it fills.

The only other way I can see to do it would be through a pressurized system - this one you could put below your tank. However, you would have to find a water tight bucket and then drill your bulkheads in the lid and make sure they're water tight as well. A powerhead would still be used but you'd have to have a pretty powerful one as you'd have to overcome gravity going out of the tank as well as gravity coming back up to the tank.

[euphylius]

I need a slim "bucket", because I don't have place for a round one.

Any comment is apreciated.

[hydro]

HI Actually I think the slim bucket should work better than the round because there is less chance for the sediment to settle out of the water. MY .02
Joe

[Spuds725]

Originally posted by psimitry

The only other way I can see to do it would be through a pressurized system - this one you could put below your tank. However, you would have to find a water tight bucket and then drill your bulkheads in the lid and make sure they're water tight as well. A powerhead would still be used but you'd have to have a pretty powerful one as you'd have to overcome gravity going out of the tank as well as gravity coming back up to the tank.

The powerhead would not have to be powerful, since you are pumping down and back up, the net affect due to the height rising back up would be equalized by the head of water going down--- think of a siphon loop... initiate a siphon with a long length of hose---- now raise one end back up so its almost level with your tank but the bottom of the loop still droops down to the floor... you will still get flow and without a pump and the water is rising up 4+ feet.

Now their is a hazard with running below your tank... the height of water in the tubing/hose going down and back up exert a slight pressure inside the bucket--- the pressure is not alot but the surface area of bucket lids presents a hydraulic problem... a small amount of pressure acting on a large enough surface area causes quite a bit of force.... see my post on this from several pages back...

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...83#post7441983


Spuds...

[euphylius]

Originally posted by hydro
HI Actually I think the slim bucket should work better than the round because there is less chance for the sediment to settle out of the water. MY .02
Joe

I think the flow will be faster than in bucket. Approx. 1000l per hour of water will trawel through 0,65 dm x 0,5 dm area, all the 2 meters long way.

[silversnake]

My trates regularly run 20-40ppm. I am going to get a 5 gal bucket (plastic) fill it with sand hook my skimmer to it and let it draw water from the sump and overflow the bucket back into the sump(30 gallon plastic container from walmart) and I will post a weekly report. I have never had 0 trates. I will literally jump for joy if I can achieve 0 trates. I feed dts phytoplankton daily, oyster eggs twice weekly, frozen and live brine three times a week, frozen squid and cyclopeeze twice a week and I also drip Kalk 5 gallons a week. Moderately stocked 100 gal with 150 lbs of live roc.

[psimitry]

Even if you get it down to 10, it's a significant difference.