First Timer with some ideas - Page 3

iairj84 · #51 10/31/2007, 03:51 PM

Haha well I don't mind waiting a week or so for them. I'm not going to go insane as it's been since july that i've been reading up and wanting to do this so another week or so isn't too far off.

I'm going to look at some live rock from a guy on craigslist. Does anyone have sump or tank space where I could let it sit for a few weeks til I get my tank going?

iairj84 · #52 11/02/2007, 04:18 PM

Alright I've ordered the bulkheads as all the places here in town either didn't have them or they were way too much. I ordered two 1/2'' bulkheads for the return, and 1 1'' for the drain to sump.

I've decided to make my sump a fuge also so I don't want a ton of flow flowing through the fuge so I'm going to set it up to have the return teed off with ball valves and have some flow going to the intake part of the fuge and some going to the return part of the fuge so I'm not pummeling my macro with a ton of flow but I won't be limited by pump size and I can limit my need for powerheads with the two returns as opposed to one with a power head on the otherside. I can get a better pump with the money I would save from the powerhead.

I've gotten a lot of help via PM from underwaterparadise and I reccomend him to anyone in that marysville area as he seems like a great guy and very very knowledgable. I will definately be buying some stuff from him next time I run through there.

BBishop · #53 11/04/2007, 04:49 PM

Pool supply stores usually carry bulkhead fittings.

kinghokus420 · #54 11/04/2007, 07:55 PM

pool supply... i never thought of that one. there's one over by bestbuy.

iairj84 · #55 11/04/2007, 08:02 PM

Yeah I went by a couple pool and spa places here in town to no avail. I didn't try the one by best buy but I got them for around $5 shipped and I figured I couldn't find them much cheaper locally. I have to wait for the diamond hole saws to come anyways.

iairj84 · #56 11/05/2007, 01:51 AM

Anyone have any reccomendations as far as sand goes? I don't want to pay the premium for live sand as I'm getting a good amount of seeded and cured (in a tank for years) live rock. I have used sand in my freshwater aquariums the standard stuff from the hardware store at $5 a 50lb bag but I don't know if that's acceptable here.... Any reccomendations?

boviac · #57 11/05/2007, 07:30 PM

www.plumbingsupply.com is located across from the brewery but no longer has a public counter only via internet. You can get most anything to do with plumbing from them. But pretty steep S&H costs. Also there is NORMAC located at the very south end of town off of 99 on the west side. They specialize in sprinkler and irrigation systems.

iairj84 · #58 11/05/2007, 09:38 PM

Thanks Boviac, I got tired of driving all across town with leads that went nowhere so I ordered from customaquatics.com and they were about $3.50 a piece there and under $20 for 4 of them shipped. I Don't think I could've found them any cheaper locally anyways. They're based out of LA area so they should be here by the end of the week at the latest. The hole saws are coming from china so I wasn't needing them too quickly...

I'll have to call NORMAC next time I need some.

iairj84 · #59 11/11/2007, 03:36 PM

Well a lot has gone on in the past week or so. I picked up about 20 pounds of live rock from a local hobbiest in town at a killer price and they look great with a lot of crevices and nice spots. It also had a fair amount of coraline growth on them as well. I've kept it under a standard PC fixture with a powerhead running in the tub with them. I'm hoping for very little die off which I don't think will happen.

I also got my bulkheads and pump. The pump is rated at 600gph which won't be as high with headloss. I got the pump just due to getting a great deal on it even though I wasn't needing that much flow. I upped my drain size to 1'' as opposed to 3/4'' due to the increased pump size. The returns are still dual 1/2'' fittings.

I will actually be using the sump as a refugium instead and know that 600 gph through a 10 gallon tank is way too much flow for a refugium so I'm tee'ing off the drain and using ballvalves to control the flows, partial flow to one side of the Fuge and partial flow going straight to the return pump. This should work out well as I can control the amount of flow going through the fuge while still allowing the pump to flow fully.

kinghokus420 · #60 11/11/2007, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by iairj84
I'm tee'ing off the drain and using ballvalves to control the flows, partial flow to one side of the Fuge and partial flow going straight to the return pump. This should work out well as I can control the amount of flow going through the fuge while still allowing the pump to flow fully.

you're better off teeing the return. less chance for disaster. let your incoming water go straight to the skimmer/inlet area and tee off of your return back to the fuge. if you have an obstruction in your drain the pump really doesnt care. and it will pump until your sump is dry overflowing your tank. if it happens with a tee on the return at least it buys some more time to catch it before flood with the reduced flow into the tank. that is if you only have one drain. i have 2 and my setup is exactly like you want to do, but 1 drain for me can handle all of my flow if something happens to the other. use powerheads or closed loop for tank flow not your return pump. HTH

Underwaterparadise · #61 11/11/2007, 04:18 PM

You can't have the drain dumping right into the return pump section or your tank will be full of bubbles. With what very little space you have in a 10g tank the fuge may not be the best way to go.

I don't see any issues teeing off the drain ( have done it on several tanks, all of them have the return zone in the center with the fuge at one end and the skimmer at the other) as long as you are not closing the valves too much. Also make sure you have some type of screen over the drain.

iairj84 · #62 11/11/2007, 04:56 PM

I'm going with an overflow in the tank but I will put a strainer over the drain as well. I don't need an overly large fuge. To me anything is better than nothing when it comes to getting the "Trates" out. I've seen the nano cubes with one of the compartments as a fuge and that's a lot smaller. Could another box in the 10 for a second return box. The skimmer will be HOB so it won't need much space. 600 GPH is too much flow going through a refugium right?

iairj84 · #63 11/11/2007, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kinghokus420
you're better off teeing the return. less chance for disaster. let your incoming water go straight to the skimmer/inlet area and tee off of your return back to the fuge. if you have an obstruction in your drain the pump really doesnt care. and it will pump until your sump is dry overflowing your tank. if it happens with a tee on the return at least it buys some more time to catch it before flood with the reduced flow into the tank. that is if you only have one drain. i have 2 and my setup is exactly like you want to do, but 1 drain for me can handle all of my flow if something happens to the other. use powerheads or closed loop for tank flow not your return pump. HTH

Also the reason why I'm going with two returns to the tank is due to space and wanting to take up as little space as possible with such a small tank. I don't want a bunch of powerheads in the tank if at all possible.

iairj84 · #64 11/11/2007, 05:02 PM

BTW, I appreciate all of your opinions when I ask more questions or second guess it's not me being rude It's just me solidifying a thought in mind or killing a crazy thought I have... You all have a lot more experience than I do and I appreciate the input.

kinghokus420 · #65 11/11/2007, 05:58 PM

i dont know jack, i just stayed at a holiday inn express last night.

Underwaterparadise · #66 11/11/2007, 06:41 PM

Fuge or not you don't want the drain dumping into the same compartment as the return. You may have a hard time

IMO fuges are overrated as far as Nutrient consumption. You can have 50lbs of macro and unless you have good husbandry your Nitrates can still get out of hand!

The returns are all ready going to be teed correct? Your not running two pumps so the only way to have 2 return lines is to tee it off into 2 seperate outlets

Underwaterparadise · #67 11/11/2007, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kinghokus420
you're better off teeing the return. less chance for disaster. let your incoming water go straight to the skimmer/inlet area and tee off of your return back to the fuge. if you have an obstruction in your drain the pump really doesnt care. and it will pump until your sump is dry overflowing your tank. if it happens with a tee on the return at least it buys some more time to catch it before flood with the reduced flow into the tank. that is if you only have one drain. i have 2 and my setup is exactly like you want to do, but 1 drain for me can handle all of my flow if something happens to the other. use powerheads or closed loop for tank flow not your return pump. HTH

I'm a lil confused (easily done sometimes hahaha) What difference does teeing off the drain make? Either way it can get pluged and flood if something goes over the box and plugs the hole. I may be having a brain fart but I don't see what difference it would make.

And don't give me that I don't know jack BS hahaha LOL besides I know Jack and never liked the guy

kinghokus420 · #68 11/11/2007, 07:45 PM

the way my mind sees it that if something reduces the flow to the sump(in overflow,plumbing,on fittings used to re-direct flow) the return pump would quickly overwhelm the display.
if the flow from the return was partially redirected to the fuge it would slow down the flow from the tank=more skimmer contact, adjustable flow to fuge, less pressure to suck up a snail.
im not saying that it cant be done. it can,has and will continue to be done like that with no issues im sure. but if theres a way to lessen the chances of flood why not? plus the idea of a slower flowing sump makes more sense to me. i could be wrong. its has happened before.

iairj84 · #69 11/11/2007, 08:21 PM

Alright well regardless if I go with a fuge or not I'm tee'ing off the return to tank lines into two as to get the flow split up... Everyone I've talked to about that said it would be fine.

I can see what you mean about the air bubbles and I've heard of that as well. Neither of the LFS's I talked to about it mentioned air bubbles and said it would work well but I'll take your word for it as I don't want to risk it and have to replumb.

To King: I don't see how 2 1/2'' pipes is worse than a single 1'' pipe. Yeah there's less space and could potentially get clogged easier but with an overflow it shouldn't be a huge issue I feel.

The fuge was just an idea I had to help keep nitrates down. could I run it as a high flow fuge with all the flow going through it and only using a DSB and LR rubble? that would give me additional filtering withought worrying about getting macro strewn about.

kinghokus420 · #70 11/11/2007, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by iairj84

I'm tee'ing off the drain and using ballvalves to control the flows, partial flow to one side of the Fuge and partial flow going straight to the return pump. . [/B]

Quote:

Originally posted by iairj84

I'm going to set it up to have the return teed off with ball valves

i guess im just confused? i vote for option B. thats all im getting at. use the biggest plumbing realistically possible.
1" does flow more than 2 - 1/2" its fact. no need to argue. im not sure the exact details but its something to do with friction loss . but i wasnt saying anything about plumbing sizes? and im not too sure where you are using them.
1" for the drain is good.
1/2" is bad
1" for return will give more flow at a slower velocity
1/2" for return will give you less flow but more velocity.
3/4" is about a balance
of course these sizes dont apply to a 30000gph mega pump but for most applications it is ok.

personally i use a mag 9 with 1" plumbing for my return approx 700gph gives good flow through a 45g sump. IMO
and for the drains i use 2x 1" flex. i know that a single 1" will support the flow from my return. i like overkill.

im just trying to save you a security deposit on the carpet. and one helluva headache cleaning it up. like i said i could be wrong.

kinghokus420 · #71 11/11/2007, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by iairj84

The fuge was just an idea I had to help keep nitrates down. could I run it as a high flow fuge with all the flow going through it and only using a DSB and LR rubble? that would give me additional filtering withought worrying about getting macro strewn about. [/B]

for a fuge area. slow flow is best, it gives your media/algae/skimmer/rock/sand/whatever, more contact time. contact time = removal of nasties. slow flow is good everywhere but your display.

iairj84 · #72 11/11/2007, 09:02 PM

No that makes sense to me what you're saying... I was just sharing what I had been told would work and was bouncing it off you guys to see if you thought it would work. Apparently it won't the way I was thinking, which is fine with head loss I know I'm not going to get 600 out of the pump but unfortunately I haven't been able to find with my pump exactly what I'll be getting. The reason for the ball valves was so I could easily clean the sump as well as changing how much flow would be going to the sump as I don't know exactly how much the pump will pump.

boviac · #73 11/12/2007, 01:04 AM

I agree with the flow statement by KingHokus420. However, it really depends on your livestock. I've got some LPS frogspawn who seems to be getting hammered by my return flow which happens to have an DIY eductor on it. Further that flow is being directed from the right back corner at about a 45 to the center front glass and then reflecting back onto the frogspawn which has recently been poping off heads - I suspect due to stressed location after my PH upgrade. Really, I feel I've only brought my flow up to a more acceptable level only to find out some of my corals don't like it. BTW I have other corals which are not popping off heads so I know it's not an element deficency but by observing the front line polyps being stressed back is what's telling me its the flow. Plus things like mushrooms and other lagoon type corals tend to like lower flow. Just watch out for the nasties that grow in low flow conditions as well.

I've also witnessed someone return a Koralia 4 to an LFS because it blasted all of his corals in the 29gal he put it in. FYI... it is possible to have too much flow but as a general rule - no.

iairj84 - ball valves suck for controlling flow beyond three positions: Open, 1/4 way open (about 1/2 flow), and Shut. They are however great for isolation and cost. Gate valves which unfortuantely cost more are better for controlling flow with Globe valves (don't think they make these in PVC) being the best. Needle valves are best for trickle flow rates. HTHs

iairj84 · #74 11/12/2007, 01:24 AM

Well coincidentally frogspawn is one of my favorite looking LPS and I will for sure have some in my tank. I will keep the flow rate in mind when I add it....

I could go with gate valves but the ball valves should be fine. I don't plan on adjusting the flow a whole lot with them though. They're cheap enough to save me when cleaning the sump (or fuge.)

So I ask the question again... How much flow would be too much flow to be going through a fuge?

boviac · #75 11/12/2007, 01:29 AM

Sorry missed that one. I would say if you're macro algae is being blasted around.... too much - a gentle flow is what is desired. Second Sorry as I haven't read the entire thread. But for a smaller setup, I would say about 10-60 gph would be optimum but no more than say about 250 gph.

I'm planning on using a tee off my return to go up to a HOB refugium that will gravity flow into the main tank. I'm hoping to limit that to a max of 400 gph and throttled down to about 100 gph. Right now I do not have a fuge set up.